I cited sources for pretty much everything I said in my previous posts in the thread, if you'd like to check. The quote from Imam Shahid Mehdi wasn't linked to specifically, but as I provided the quote verbatim it's simple enough to google it. I too would like to see some sources for what SirQuiamus is claiming, though.
Also, I'm sure you didn't intend if that way, but your last paragraph comes across as 'sounds like Europe making a fuss over nothing just because they have a bit more ethnic diversity'. Which is extremely dismissive of the violence suffered by the young women involved. And from the perspective of a European - I'm assuming you're American from the way you phrased that paragraph - no. It's not at all about 'ethnic diversity'. I don't give a flying fig what colour or ethnic makeup somebody is, I care about their behaviour, and, by extension, their culture (as the one is a strong influence on the other).
If a load of purple and yellow polka-dotted people came over here and started drinking tea, eating biscuits and discussing Coronation Street, they'd be welcomed with open arms. If anyone comes and starts spreading values contrary to our own - that (kafir) women are second-class citizens, that killing people over a cartoon is justifiable, or that homosexuality should be punished by death? Then it doesn't matter what ethnicity they have, a lot of people are going to be very troubled by that. And when it goes beyond just saying these things, and into the realm of atrocities such as Rotherham (where over 1400 children were sexually abused by gangs of Pakistani men, and the crimes were covered up and downplayed by the police and government for fear of being seen as racist), or the sexual assaults of Cologne and other cities we've been discussing? Of course that's going to prompt a lot of anger and calls for change.
To reduce these issues to 'having to deal with a bit more ethnic diversity' is ridiculously uninformed at best.
Oh, sorry, no, I meant it in basically the opposite way. Not 'silly Europeans' so much as 'not inoculated against drastically different cultures->smallpox/syphilis'. America's been a melting pot since it's foundation, in one way or another. When you're forced to tolerate all these different cultures until they go too far, eventually only the halfway reasonable ones remain (I'm using a very simplified denotation of 'remain' here). If that's not the case, then when something happens that pushes said cultures together, culture clash happens. Emphasis on the
clash. Granted, I didn't go into very much detail, but internally, at least, I was hypothesizing about the root causes of this and why it's not happening in America (other than the whole 'YOU CAN'T MAKE US TAKE REFUGEES GAARRRR' thing). Sorry for that not being clearer (sidenote: I was using ethnic diversity as shorthand to mean cultural/ethnic/socio-economic diversty, my bad)
If I'm being honest, though, I was just trying to make a jibe about how as bad as America is, Europe has it worse at the moment, unfortunately. And how it seems like there's never really a solution to this shit.
I try not to take a side, period. Figure out what's true, figure out from that what's going on that's
wrong, fix it in a way that doesn't entail a second wrong. That's difficult, sometimes, strangely enough. >.<
I will point out, Covenant, that Islamic nations and refugees fleeing Islamic nations will not necessarily hold the same values. Strawman or no, motte-and-bailey helps no one. (sidenote I wish I didn't have to make: I don't think you're doing it on purpose and I may be reading too much into things as it's late and I'm tired; people just make arguments like that without realizing it)
Speaking of consistency, what do people think of the idea of
this? Focused less on the rationality bits and more on the bits like
this article, in which many or most of the terrorists had western college degrees. If Islam and western analytical thought don't click without resulting in violence, maybe that's part of what's driving it? Of course, it might be that the would-be terrorists without college degrees simply don't have the expertise, but I think it's interesting to consider, at least. I dunno. I probably shouldn't try to explain things when I'm tired.
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Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread (Read 1293231 times)