Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 713 714 [715] 716 717 ... 759

Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286616 times)

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10710 on: August 14, 2015, 12:11:34 am »

Anyone in any form or stage of penal custody in the U.S. has very, very few rights, and the ones that they do have are very weakly protected.

On top of that, Manning is a political prisoner.
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10711 on: August 14, 2015, 12:52:20 am »

Well, that's military law, which is harsh.

Now, the thing is, I'm really afraid they are going to stick her in solitary for ages, given the way she was treated pre-trial. Also, given the way they seem to want to stick anything they can on her (expired toothpase? Seriously?). Although that could just be her pissing off a CO.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10712 on: August 14, 2015, 01:20:19 am »

I get the need for a semi-independent court system for the military for the sake of dealing with an organization whose environment is so radically different from civilian life and in which there are cultural necessities (such as in discipline) that would be abhorrent to apply to people who didn't volunteer for them. So military law being especially harsh, okay. But it seems to me that if you're dishonorably discharging somebody, the point is that they have so flagrantly violated the standards of the organization that they're being expelled from it. And, to the point here, if they're no longer a part of that organization, there's no longer any reason to subject them to military standards of discipline; they're no longer participating in the culture themselves, trustworthy soldiers will be deterred by the threat of discharge in the first place (so no harsh example needs to be made for them), and untrustworthy ones will not be deterred at all because they largely assume they'll not be caught (so no harsh example will be productive for them).

Obviously, dishonorable discharge as a get-out-of-jail-free card would be dumb, but the sensible thing to do would be to give them a criminal or civil trial for their misdeeds. Maybe it would even be reasonable if they had some additional baggage, for example a significant reduction in what they could have a reasonable expectation of privacy for on account of their chosen profession. And they'd start out with a hefty disadvantage because, presumably, the record of the court martial would be admissible and none too favorable. This just feels vindictive and arbitrary.

Isn't the USA supposed to be one of the Good Guys? Aren't we supposed to make some attempt at treating prisoners honestly and honorably, in spite of the fact that they very well might not deserve it?
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10713 on: August 14, 2015, 01:35:53 am »

Yes to the first, no to the second. Since we're the Good Guys, that means that the Bad Guys deserve no good treatment and whatever we do to them is justified since we're a priori in the right and they're a priori in the wrong due to being Bad. A great swath of our country is pretty okay with prisoners being beaten, raped, and/or tortured, regardless of what they actually did. Usually by other prisoners for at least the middle one, but still. And military malcontents? Ha.

You'll note that the immediate response from one of our military folks was "hopefully someone loses the key", i.e. indefinite, extended, solitary (aka explicit torture) is not just A-Okay, but desirable.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10714 on: August 14, 2015, 03:22:06 am »

On top of that, Manning is a political prisoner.
Highly debatable.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Strife26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10715 on: August 14, 2015, 07:22:35 am »

That was admittedly not the best or most accurate turn of phrase that I could have used. Manning was sentenced with 35 years in Leavenworth with a chance of parole after 8; I find that a completely reason punishment for a stupid, easily manipulated, ego-driven kid. Beyond that, I find the idea that completely regular, purely internal prison issues are an important concern for the greater outside world to be more than a little ridiculous.

 On initial paperwork like that, one always always always lists the maximum punishment available. Anything less, and Joe is going to claim that he didn't understand exactly what he was facing. I've personally been threatened, on a piece of paper not very different than that one, with reduction of rank, forfeiture of half my pay for sixth months, and a dishonorable discharge. This was all for similar in scope to expired toothpaste offense of not vacuuming a carpet. Now, if Chelsea is actually getting thrown into solitary for an extended length of time on general offenses, I could see maybe wondering what the hell the staff at Leavenworth is doing. As is? It's just another Manning-started reminder of the gulf between the professional military culture and the general civilian one.



I'd argue that the civilian court system is not remotely suitable for trying the majority of military offenses. It's an entirely different culture, law book, standards, and circumstances. The Uniform Code of Military Justice isn't a bad bit of legal code, and the civilian side still does fun things like occasionally pass down effective death sentences for pot possession.
Logged
Even the avatars expire eventually.

Sebastian2203

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10716 on: August 14, 2015, 07:51:21 am »

I did not find any suitable thread for this,so I post it here.

ToadyOne will soon reach 10 000 posts, yay.
Logged

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10717 on: August 14, 2015, 08:29:01 am »

The Happy Thread would be better.
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Calidovi

  • Bay Watcher
  • agnus dei
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10718 on: August 15, 2015, 04:30:17 pm »

Yes to the first, no to the second. Since we're the Good Guys, that means that the Bad Guys deserve no good treatment and whatever we do to them is justified since we're a priori in the right and they're a priori in the wrong due to being Bad. A great swath of our country is pretty okay with prisoners being beaten, raped, and/or tortured, regardless of what they actually did.

On a slightly connected note, aren't independent drug dealers (not cartel or gang members) having sentences reworked?

Logged






Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10719 on: August 15, 2015, 05:16:52 pm »

How do you fight drug cartels without fighting its demand? It'd be like decriminalizing ivory trade but only going after poachers and runners

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10720 on: August 15, 2015, 05:18:57 pm »

You don't. Unless you go out and literally blow them up, I suppose, and we're not quite ready to go and explicitly conquer south/central america, yet.

... if it's not obvious by now that the US treatment of the drug situation in this country is completely bughumpingly incompetent, you haven't been paying much attention.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10721 on: August 15, 2015, 05:20:08 pm »

You don't fight cartels? But then that spreads funding to criminal and terrorist organizations from Colombia to Afghanistan

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10722 on: August 15, 2015, 05:22:40 pm »

It does! You've identified an aspect of the state of current US efforts against the drug trade. Congrats, I guess.

Being equitable, most of the other major countries in the world more or less have their thumbs firmly jammed up their arse on the subject, too *shrugs*

E: There are some more direct efforts, for what it's worth, from what I understand. Cooperation between US organizations and the people directly working against cartels down south, stuff like that. It's just relatively little and not even remotely enough to meaningfully impact supply and whatnot. Generally we just kinda' stick our heads in the ground, shit on local folks for relatively minor drug possession and whatnot crimes, and then pat ourselves on the back and call it day, having done little to nothing and probably making the situation worse.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 05:26:25 pm by Frumple »
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Calidovi

  • Bay Watcher
  • agnus dei
    • View Profile
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10723 on: August 15, 2015, 05:23:08 pm »

But then that spreads funding to criminal and terrorist organizations from Colombia to Afghanistan

Wait, is ISIS the only organization dependent on oil revenues? I have no idea about foreign affairs, as I am an American.
Logged






Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10724 on: August 15, 2015, 05:28:36 pm »

But then that spreads funding to criminal and terrorist organizations from Colombia to Afghanistan
Wait, is ISIS the only organization dependent on oil revenues? I have no idea about foreign affairs, as I am an American.
They're also heavy into drug money. Half of all Europe's heroin runs through ISIS controlled Iraq, giving them a lucrative cut in some new silk road made out of drugs. And it's all being grown in Afghanistan to boot.


*EDIT
Make a new thread on the war on drugs? It's a very big topic, and very interesting too
Pages: 1 ... 713 714 [715] 716 717 ... 759