Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

But that was your entire point...

You know why there's a greater punishment for selling drugs within 1000 ft of a school, and/or to children?

Because people do it and we don't want them to.

t's also illegal here to go over 40 kmph near a school. Many things are illegal near a school and it doesn't tell you whether they're inherently bad or not.

This is pure "think of the children" appeal to emotion. not appeal to logic or reason. Accuse me of trolling when *I* use emotion in response to a logical post of yours.

[EnigmaticHat]

But that was your entire point...

t's also illegal here to go over 40 kmph near a school. Many things are illegal near a school and it doesn't tell you whether they're inherently bad or not.

This is pure "think of the children" appeal to emotion. not appeal to logic or reason. Accuse me of trolling when *I* use emotion in response to a logical post of yours.

Ok first of all, you're really deep into this conversation to be quoting Truean.

Secondly, you clearly don't understand their point.  Its not an appeal to emotion.  The difference between children and adults is that one is more vulnerable to manipulation.  The point is that by targeting children drug dealers are manipulating consumers, which supports the overall point Truean was making.  (at risk of putting words in Truean's mouth)

The 40 KM thing isn't even a valid comparison.  People aren't supposed to drive quickly around schools so they don't *accidentally* run over a child.  People aren't supposed to sell drugs near schools so they don't *intentionally* sell a child drugs.  Two different dynamics.

[Reelya]

I got called a troll for paraphrasing so quoting what I was referencing was called for.

But that still has issues. Plenty of things are not ok to do with or sell to kids, but seen as a choice for adults. Just because we don't want something to be an option for kids isn't a reason by itself to say it's not a valid option for adults.

Appealing to children's inability to make choice, when we were discussing the validity of choices that adults make is definitely an appeal to emotion. Minors cannot give sexual consent either. We could just apply the same argument and say that all consent between adults is therefore illusionary.

[Truean]

Wow.... The rails are way off over there and the train has derailed....

1.) You said, "I'm not sure about the false advertising for either heroin and cigarettes. You're getting what you pay for and you'd have to be living under a rock not to know that these things are addictive before you try them. It's not like a dealer can make his/her own reality.."

(Let's just gloss over the heroin comment....)I showed you false advertising, and people being told it wasn't bad for them (doctors endorsing cigarettes) by dealers paying billions to make their own reality.... That is exactly what big tobacco did, and they did it at kids with cartoon mascots, because:

2.) "Very few people have needles forced into their arms, and they're usually doing it on the say-so of a friend not a dealer. People who become junkies aren't living in a vacuum, they almost certainly already know other junkies and can see the effects."

There absolutely were/are massive tobacco companies specifically targeting children with cartoons, and I showed that to you. I showed you those same companies misleading adults and obscuring their information/altering their choices. There are dealers pushers who do this more directly at schools, and yes, literally or all but literally force kids to do drugs. They may or may not beat you up, but they will do everything they can to push their "product." This has nothing to do with emotion; I've seen it. It happens, more than you'd think.

3.) The rest of it seems to be trying to make some kind of comparisons to off topic subjects for some reason that escapes me, "There are e.g. professional people who do this. And when you think about it, that's obvious."

For every Charlie Sheen or rock star, there are hundreds if not thousands of addicts. Even if you latch onto the idea that "this isn't 100%," old Charlie isn't doing too well, because he got booted right out of his show. Mr Sheen made $1.25 Million Dollars per episode of "Two and Half Men," which he lost when he got booted off. He did 178 episodes before being shown the door. Mr. Ashton Kutcher replaced him for 84 episodes...

Let's see.... $1.25 Million times 84 episodes.... That's about $105 Million Dollars Charlie Sheen lost to his drug habit and excesses therefrom.

Maybe Mr Sheen doesn't "have to have that money to survive," but I bet you he could find a use for it....
________________________________________________________________

Reelya, I don't know why you're so upset. I don't know why you're comparing me to "bible-thumping America," when I'm gay and they absolutely hate my guts for it/I have nothing to do with them. I don't know why you seem to be choosing to interpret my words in the worst way possible. There was no "appeal to emotion" or "think of the children" in my statements. Those are all facts and directly addressed your points.

The point I was making is that addiction is deceptive, hence the false advertising, and the "illusion of filling a need, but actually making it much much worse. I have no idea what you're driving at or who you think you're trying to convince of what here, man. I don't know if you seem to be blaming users themselves for their predicament as if there were no outside factors, or what, but it seems that way.

Regardless, yeah, this isn't a fun or acceptable way to have a conversation. There's no "winning," and the idea that there ever could be is just kinda... odd? Again, you seem very upset. I recommend you take a small break, gather yourself and come back then. I hope you feel better soon.

[UXLZ]

Both of you seem to be getting somewhat aggravated, Truean. Then again, it may just be the more formal tone you're using.

Re: Mice. I understand, it's just the way that you worded it suggested it as a certain fact rather than what is most likely, or seemingly. The distance between absolutes and less-than-absolutes is infinitely large, after all (there's a reason why I argue strongly against the existence of an omni-whatever in the Religion thread.) Still, it's nothing too important to talk about.

Re: Needs. I see. I must have missed that.

Re: Houses. Surely that's only a relatively small subset of the population, though? I guess since I'm not from America I can't quite understand. Houses here in Australia tend to be too expensive to get just for the sake of storing crap.

I can't see how addiction is the antithesis of capitalism. A perversion of the system, possibly, but they aren't really all that closely linked. Am I missing something?

[Reelya]

Truean, I got aggravated at the exact point you started with ad hominem rather than addressing the points.

All the advertisements you posted are also many decades old. Maybe those are relevant in a historical sense, but historical references have limitation on applicability. We can post stuff from the 1950's making all sort of points, but we need to link that back to the current moment in a convincing way to make the point that you want. Look at all those old snake oil tonic ads from years ago. Clearly every pharmaceutical preparation is crap, too.

Misleading advertising is all over the place in regular capitalism, so it's not really a thing that can be singled out for any one industry.

[Antsan]

I'd say that there are a lot of things that people actually want that also are addictive. That is to say: There are scenarios where it is desirable and even productive to use them, but if you are prone to addiction you are likely to want to use them in cases where they are inappropriate. This is true for most addictive drugs (although I never got what is so interesting about the nicotine rush, which is kind of ironic, given how popular it seems to be).

There is also the inconvenient fact that one hit of any drug isn't going to turn you into an instant addict.

I heard that actually does happen with heroine.

And, yeah, forcing drugs on people is one way to force them into prostitution. You know, with literally forcing needles into their arm. Although I guess this is not what we are talking about here.

Charlie Sheen getting booted out of the show and then his life going downhill is not because he was using drugs but because people have prejudices against people who use drugs. It's not like he got booted out when he started using drugs, it was when people found out he was doing so. I guess for the longest time he took them people were fine with his performance.
So, the cause of his life going downhill is because of being shunned. As far as I can tell a lot of addicts would be able to live a much better and much more productive life if they weren't rejected by society.

All the advertisements you posted are also many decades old. Maybe those are relevant in a historical sense, but historical references have limitation on applicability. We can post stuff from the 1950's making all sort of points, but we need to link that back to the current moment in a convincing way to make the point that you want. Look at all those old snake oil tonic ads from years ago. Clearly every pharmaceutical preparation is crap, too.

Misleading advertising is all over the place in regular capitalism, so it's not really a thing that can be singled out for any one industry.

I think the point is that our culture already has large parts where the "smoking is cool" narrative is dominant and I don't think we need to talk about how socially accepted alcohol is.

[Vattic]

While addiction and physical dependence is clearly no fun I doubt the claim that heroin doesn't make you feel good. I haven't experience with opiates/opioids recreationally and even small amounts on prescription make me throw up, but I know plenty of people who claim to enjoy the side effects of their prescriptions (short lived as the dose doesn't increase to match tolerance like it can for a recreational user).

All this talk of 100% heroin addiction rates got me trying to find out the true figure. According the the UK Department of Health 23.1% of users are addicted to heroin. Higher than most other illegal substances and alcohol, but lower than tobacco at 31.9%. They got their numbers from the American National Comorbidity Survey 1994. I tried to dig out more sources to compare without luck. Heroin statistics are harder to come by than for any other drug I looked for. Perhaps because heroin isn't popular as compared to other drugs.

[Antsan]

That certainly is a lot lower than I expected. I guess the incentive to use heroin repeatedly instead of only once is much lower for heroine than for cigarettes.

[Magistrum]

Only bumping by to remember that this is the progressive discussion thread, not progressive argument thread.

Truean, your tone can be interpreted as arrogant, try changing you wording or post format.

If anything, I apologize for the unexpected intrusion, stay nice.

[Truean]

Yeah, I didn't do anything wrong, others here actually might have. I was rather polite, but I'm simply not going to say drugs are ok, because they aren't. This is a video game site and some people here are all but endorsing drugs (including crack and heroin). I'm out, and I simply don't want to be anywhere where that is a thing that is happening.

I've heard too much blaming society from drug addicts. Their families beg for them to be healthy and they shrug it of because they "don't have a problem," and "everyone else does." I've seen people throw away literally everything they own, everything they could own, and do completely stupid crimes to get money for their drugs. Far too many lives have been ruined by this stuff around me for me to ever consider it as legit. Frankly, certain people here are starting to try and justify terrible and addictive substance purchase. No, if that's the direction we're headed in, I refuse to even pretend to respect that or participate in it.

If you have a problem with that stance, then I have no desire to talk to you. Don't bother responding; I won't read it.

[penguinofhonor]

Okay, this has gotten a little too intense. Please try to avoid discussing other posters instead of directly talking about the topic at hand. It makes discussions a lot more personal and negative.

Let's move on to something else.

[Tiruin]

Err, just to post to poke at the terminology being used--there should be specificity if discussion is to stay level; 'drugs' as a general label would not necessarily specify the "ills" which people usually assume given that medical products and other such substances [ie caffeine] also fall under the term.

Specificity within perception, how one reads details posted or given, or detailing their own conduct or progress/idea.

...So tripping over words or subtly aggravating emotions are very much less likely to happen [ie assuming threat towards own idea]. 'Specially on the internet (or any mode of communication which may lack tone or added expression), as the reader usually defaults to which tone they're used to hearing or such, that would match the wording given.

...I wonder if grammar was ever discussed here ._.

[Magistrum]

What Tiruin said.

Redacted.

That's about right, and I share that stance, I disdain all kind of narcotics, including nicotine. That was not my point.
The point is that you made your point with a rather... offensive(?) wording, people probably thought you tried to impose your view on them or something the like... Well, sorry if I ended up doing the same to you.
EDIT:I forgot to not quote Truean.

[Antsan]

My experience has shown, that the social surroundings in which drug use happens have a large influence on how dangerous and damaging those drugs are. People who know the dangers of what they use and watch out for each other will have a much more positive experience than the ones who don't care what they are doing to themselves or the ones who are just generally assholes.

Unfortunately many drug users have grown up with a false dilemma of choosing between fun and health, consequently not caring about their health at all. Also they often don't know about how drugs interact or even that drugs interact at all. Many also come out of a culture where sleeping on a party means that you wake up with dicks and swastikas drawn on your face and where drinking water instead of alcohol is seen as a sign of weakness.
Consequently they ignore all warnings about drinking enough water and eating enough. In the same vein they take more drugs when they feel sleepy instead of going to bed or, well, they take more drugs when they think a party is boring.
It is important for any drug user, not only people taking LSD, to be in a social setting where they feel they can trust people, and unfortunately most social circles where drug use is accepted aren't really where you can find trustworthy people. Consequently drug users don't talk to each other when they feel insecure, ignored or just generally bad, instead opting to push their problems down due to drug use, until they push themselves too far.

Drugs make people vulnerable and they are easily misused, that much is true. They are not always bad.