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[Truean]

Yeah,been saying for years now. You can be discriminated against if you're GLBT and it sucks. People do not get it, and have often misguidedly tried to "encourage" me to come out, for this reason.... That picture illustrates a good part of it.

Frankly, now being gay married is a giant bulls-eye on you and pretty undeniable proof of gay for ALL the haters to see. Non majorities, completely upset at the thought of non discrimination, can still make your life hell. Two BS words "religious liberty." Translation, "discriminate against gays."

Once again those "sincerely held beliefs" are BS because they're not consistently applied and are cherry picked from various obscure passages in the bible among others nobody follows (mixed threads, shellfish, pork, etc). All this while ignoring the rules literally set in stone, 10 commandments.

You'd let an adulterer in your store but not a gay?

Hypocrite. Arbitrary. Capricious.

[UXLZ]

One of the things that has irritated me greatly for quite some is the tendency for people to take the Bible, or indeed, the Quran or any other such scripture, and cherry pick the parts that support what they believe and completely and utterly ignore the parts that do not. The terribleness of character in people such as those that discriminate against LGBT people makes me angry, but it is honestly the inconsistent internal logic that makes me absolutely furious and is the basis for my belief that people shouldn't be allowed to use religious beliefs or "faith" as justification for their actions unless they follow their source completely.

If someone followed the Bible to the letter (not like that's possible given how often it contradicts itself) and attempted to use it as justification for their actions... I would still despise their actions, but I would be able to understand their position. Those, however, who use it as a basis for their own hate to spring forth from yet do not follow it elsewhere... For them, I have nothing but contempt.

[Arx]

I'd appreciate it if people could be a little careful about the religion thing. The number of unbased statements and things that are just plain wrong that get said is incredible.

[Tiruin]

In regards to religion--it takes understanding to actually get what's being written--many people take what's written literally, and I'm glad my instructors in theology all agree on one thing: to not let whatever dividing point within the Bible turn or create a belief against any people (because that's blatantly :V).

I'm unsure how the hate is formed from that--but one can face 'their' ideas with calmness and discussion; other than the fact that it is plain wrong, the ideas written are contextually bound. Back then, and speaking from seminal knowledge, the idea of such acts was...pretty much = to acts of adultery and all. NOT equal to the understanding of today and such.
Just that the words are the same. So. -.- Religious Liberty in the context of keeping up  against any person is not truly meaning what is meant. Superficial biased liberty more like. <_<

Though I am really curious how the law is there in the US (and lack the time to browse back in the recent pages). Did they...err, 'cover'(?) those points being discussed under the law? :O

Also PTW.

[UXLZ]

I'd appreciate it if people could be a little careful about the religion thing. The number of unbased statements and things that are just plain wrong that get said is incredible.

I don't believe I am saying a single thing that is wrong, Arx. I am merely espousing my anger at those who are inconsistent with their claims, cherry picking parts from religious texts to support their hatred while totally ignoring others. Perhaps this issue is simply something slightly more personal to me than others, I do tend to attempt to take a detached look, but that is why internal inconsistency irritates me all the more.

Tiruin, your speech is as incomprehensible as it is verbose. Per the norm, it seems. xD

[Arx]

I don't believe I am saying a single thing that is wrong, Arx. I am merely espousing my anger at those who are inconsistent with their claims, cherry picking parts from religious texts to support their hatred while totally ignoring others.

Amongst other things, you (admittedly probably accidentally, but nonetheless) heavily implied that you think I'm a despicable person, and there was in fact what I believe to be an error regarding religion in your post. This is not really the place for this kind of discussion though, which is why I'd prefer it if people could refrain from making definite statements about what religions do and don't definitely say under all possible interpretations.

[TempAcc]

Many people have used religious liberty as a means to pose themselves against people they dont like, but this doesnt mean religion itself is a problem, in this case, and you see that kind of argument being used on both sides. The "cherry picking parts of the bible to support my claim" thing is happening on both sides of the argument, be it LGBT/militant atheits or fundamentalist protestants/catholics/islamists/etc.

Yes, the bible does in fact say that homosexuals should be put to death, but you have to consider the fact the bible is nearly two thousand year old document formed from hundreds of documents written by different authors at different moments of history and under different cultural influences. IIRC, the anti homosexual part is from the old testament, and may or may not predate the 10 commandments, and which say nothing of homosexuality while condemning the killing of people.

Looking at the bible without considering its historical and doctrinal evolution is like looking at the result of a chemical reaction without considering the elements that first caused it. You have to consider the whole context, or you'll end up with a pre medieval idea of what christianity is like.

On a side note, there are many arguments against homosexuality/gay marriage/LGBT/etc out there that dont come from religion, which oddly most LGBT activists almost never mention or discuss.

[TD1]

To the religion discussion thread, folks! The water is luke warm and hell-infused, but the discussion is heavenly!

[UXLZ]

Those I despise are those who attempt to use their religion to justify their hatred, something I do not believe you do, Arx. I guess I didn't communicate clearly enough that by 'actions' I meant things such as burning down churches that allow gay marriage or whatever it was that has been occurring recently.

If you cherry pick the good parts, causing good actions, it still irritates me somewhat in and of itself but it doesn't cause me to think less of you personally. Still, that's another discussion for another time, as you said. Though I'd appreciate it if you PM'd me what it was, exactly, that I said erroneously. I think it may have been the part where I said the Bible often contradicts itself, though still, I would be appreciative if you confirmed it.

@Temp: Care to get some of those arguments in here for discussion? I've never actually heard any, I believe.

[TD1]

And any further replies can go here. In fact, should go here lest much wrath be seen.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147792.2370

[Rolan7]

I feel like it's more a political discussion than theological one but...  Ugh, best to keep it to the religious issues thread you're right.

[TD1]

Well, if you want I could funnel it into Europol? Or perhaps Murricapol?

[UXLZ]

No, we're fine discussing it where we are, as long as TempAcc gets those supposed seldom seen arguments in here so we can continue it without a theological basis.

[Rolan7]

On a side note, there are many arguments against homosexuality/gay marriage/LGBT/etc out there that dont come from religion, which oddly most LGBT activists almost never mention or discuss.

Maybe we can discuss these without disturbing the sacred cow.  I think Australia discouraged homosexuality because they want people to procreate?  I've heard that as a general argument against gay marriage, though only rarely.  It makes more sense in an "underpopulated" place like Australia than like... almost anywhere else.

I've also heard people discuss potential health effects.  Not just "It causes teh AIDS!!" but actual small yet possibly significant effects of certain types of sex.  Though I don't know that any of those activities are unique to same-sex couples, and the problems seemed minor and victimless.

That's all I can really think of.  If there are other serious cases being made against it, they're getting drowned out by the faith-based arguments.

[TempAcc]

Well, for one, there's the belief that homosexuality is a tendency caused by social decay and creates hedonistic and individualistic people. This comes from more then one source, with the most famous comming from communist regimes, who believed homosexuality was the result of a capitalistic society and a product of the bourgeisie (I hope I spelled that right :v). This comes mostly from Engels rather then Marx, which isn't surprising since Marx was both financialy and intelectualy dependent on Engels. Alas, dirty commies.

Another common one (mostly used by atheists who do not support homosexuality) is that homosexual couples do not contribute to the evolution of humanity because of being unable to breed, and in fact only contribute to the elimination of their own genetic traits from the DNA pool. Some argue that this isn't a critical issue since science can correct this problem, though.

Another one is that homosexual parents are unable to provide the same environment that a heterosexual couple provides to children, and thus a homosexual couple's child would have developmental problems. Some say that the lack of proper male and female role models in parents is the main cause of gender dysphoria, but thats a really shady argument IMO.

A more "slippery slope" one is that homosexual men and women are more likely to be involved in substance abuse, which is actualy supported by some statistics, but one could argue that this is mostly caused by society's hatred of gay people, rather then something that comes with homosexuality.

Anyway, I'm making clear here that I do not support any of these opinions/views, I'm just pointing out that they exist and are independent from religion, altough they can often intersect with it.