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[Angle]

*Gives Objective a hug*

[hops]

* Objective purrs and cuts Angle with all the edges

[Helgoland]

MSH, I was talking about the National Socialist Underground...

[SalmonGod]

So lots of people are freaking out over here about all the chatter among celebrities and business leaders about boycotting Indiana.

[Sheb]

Please continue your discussion Helgo and MSH, I am enjoying it immensely, especially since I find myself somewhere in between: holocaust denial is certainly not "just ignorance", but on the other hand I don't see laws banning this speech being effective, while I do see the mission creep and problem they cause.

Certainly this is in large part due to the fact that I'm exposed to the French, rather than the German context. In France, repeated convictions did not do a thing to stem the rise of antisemitism, as exemplified by Dieudonné, Soral and their "anti-sionist party". On the other hand, we're seeing 10-years old brought to police station for "apology of terrorism", as more and more opinions (all of them disgusting, but still) are being banned.

It is entirely possible that no side in this debate is right, but that the correct approach to hateful speech depends on the societal context.

[SquatchHammer]

I'm just trying to find the full bill as it is written when it was signed. I cant find it on the official Indiana website, only a digest. I really hate that since I cant read what was actually passed and know what shit it's exactly saying not "heres what we think you need to read" bullshit.

[penguinofhonor]

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[MonkeyHead]

Ask and you shall receive.

Religious freedom restoration. Prohibits a governmental entity from substantially burdening a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless the governmental entity can demonstrate that the burden: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest. Provides a procedure for remedying a violation. Specifies that the religious freedom law applies to the implementation or application of a law regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity or official is a party to a proceeding implementing or applying the law. Prohibits an applicant, employee, or former employee from pursuing certain causes of action against a private employer.

Now, I am no Lawyer, but to me that wording sounds easily defeatable. All the US government has to do is show that it is in its own interest to offer equality to all in spite of any religious inspired bigotry and you meet the two clauses needed to ignore the law.

[penguinofhonor]

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[Truean]

The wording of that bill is no accident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

The bill is trying to impede upon the domain of the courts. It will probably eventually come down to a balancing test of whose "rights" outweigh the other, because essentially, one wins and the other loses. That should be a judicial, not a legislative function. I don't even know what to do with this terrible mess that's brewing here. The ultimate question may well come down to, "is it OK to exclude a certain class of people from society?" This also takes away even the right to sue or arguably go to the labor board to determine if somebody discriminates against you.... That to me sounds strange. As somebody from that class, you can imagine my answer.

[SirQuiamus]

And then there's the Arkansas bill as well...

The bill advancing in the Republican-led Arkansas legislature says "governments should not substantially burden the free exercise of religion without compelling justification."

So, uh... you can basically do whatever the fuck you want as long you have a religious motive? Because civil rights are obviously not a "compelling justification," not with God on your side.

[Helgoland]

Please continue your discussion Helgo and MSH, -snip-

I don't think it will lead anywhere, really, because neither of us will be able to escape his societal context.

I'd like to remark though that most clichees about Germans are true to a large extent, and most of my countrymen still believe in illegal => immoral. That's a big reason to keep holocaust denial illegal in Germany right there.

[SalmonGod]

I've seen a lot of hoosiers saying that they don't believe anybody will actually take the opportunity to legally discriminate against customers.

Well...

[Truean]

Doesn't surprise me in the least. I've been fired from past jobs by people saying, "You're fired you fucking faggot!" In today's "verify" employment search environment where they want everything documented with references, that doesn't help one bit. There's also a push to be "social" with social media, and have "work life balance" which means work intruding into your home/off duty time, and again, they don't wanna know I'm gay or trans or whatever I am.... (I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with all those "+1" company functions I've been invited to except to lie and bring some girl who knows I'm gay or whatever as hell). You're also discouraged from complaining about former bosses, even if they are bigots or in some cases (convicted for doing stupid shit) criminals. As such, I've got a ton of work experience I can't verify BECAUSE of this bigotry in addition to the other stuff I can't verify because it's confidential, and I've learned to hide who I really am as a result.

See, this is how a significant number of people really think, because they're passing laws about it.... One way or the other, they get you, and this lying moron has the audacity to say his discrimination against gays HELPS his business with a positive effect. In lovely hypocrisy, he refuses to state the name of his restaurant.... Wait a minute, I hide who I am BECAUSE I know it will totally SCREW ME OVER if people know I'm gay/trans. This guy is saying he thinks it will HELP his business if he discriminates..... If he really thinks that, then why would he turn down free radio advertising by not saying the name of his business? He knows what he's doing is wrong and his business will be ripped apart if people are made aware of it, because he is a bigot who would turn down money so he can discriminate. He knows it won't help his business and he doesn't care, because he doesn't like gay people and that's pretty much it. I'm logically consistent, but this dude isn't.

[penguinofhonor]

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