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[Helgoland]

If it's a "well-known and accepted phenomenon" then it should be very easy to provide actual evidence of it among leftist leaders (eg elected politicians).  "This relatively obscure terrorist group received some level of support from some leftists (although I will not present any evidence of this support) in spite of their once doing an anti-semitic action" does not remotely provide evidence of what you're suggesting.  I think it's particularly important that you substantiate this claim, since you are using it to try and smear anyone protesting against the ongoing Gaza situation.

0) Germany and Europe in general is sensible and doesn't vote anyone more leftist than the Social Democrats into power. 'The Left' is hardly a group you connect with having positions of power, do you? And mentioning the Doctor's plot would be unfair...
1) That wasn't an 'obscure terrorist group', but a major domestic problem for the BRD. As I said, terrorism was different back then.
2) Where did you get that this was a one-time thing? People don't wake up one day saying "I think today I'll hijack a plane and kill me some holocaust survivors!". It's an example, man - have some goodwill!
3) I'll have to give you links in German, but I think that's justifiable - we're talking about a European phenomenon after all, the situation is bound to have been different in the US.
'Where leght and rift meet' (the pun works better in German)
'Complicated anti-semitism debate'
'Like the thunderstorm in the clouds', a piece on a book about the roots of terrorism in the BRD. This one will probably be the most interesting article for you, since it has a historical overview in the beginning.

And a piece by our leading leftist Gregor Gysi on the relationship between Die Linke - his party - and the state Israel. I only skimmed it, and he's one of the more sensible politicians we have - I agree with most things said in there, but it might shed some light on what debates those guys still are having.

Ant, some leftists did survive the War - if the left or parts of it were anti-semitic before, they have been anti-semitic afterwards. And the DDR's policy of having nothing to do with Nazi Germany is worth a mention here as well... Plus a lot of the really bad stuff came into being during the '68 movement, so the Neuen Bundesaender may not have been touched by that as much.
And I don't recall claiming it was 'widespread', just that it was much more widely spread than one would naively assume...

Edit: Poh, the German article has this bit:

Die Terroristen „selektierten“ die jüdischen Passagiere von den anderen.[11] Neben den israelischen Staatsbürgern waren dies 22 Franzosen und ein Staatenloser.[12] Die übrigen Geiseln wurden freigelassen. Die verbliebenen Geiseln ohne israelischen Pass wurden aufgrund ihrer vermeintlich jüdischen Namen oder anderer Indizien – teilweise fälschlich – als Juden identifiziert.

'The terrorists 'selected' the Jewish passengers from the others. In addition to the Israeli citizens these were 22 Frenchmen and one stateless person. The remaining hostages were freed. The remaining hostages without an Israeli passport were identified as Jews - sometimes wrongly - by their supposedly Jewish names or by other clues.'
So no, it wasn't selection by citizenship...

[scriver]

I find the idea that the left is "traditionally anti-semitic" ridiculous when it's conservative rightwing extremist who literally haven't stopped calling for the genocide of Jews and believing in that Jewish domination conspiracy theory since the Nazis were defeated.

The left is traditionally anti-Israel. Like I said before, anti-Israel sentiment often glide over or take expression as anti-semitism and hate, because people act stupid. But if there's any group that's "traditionally anti-semitic" it's your own, Helgoland. Particularly German conservatives.

0) Germany and Europe in general is sensible and doesn't vote anyone more leftist than the Social Democrats into power.

Trolololololo

[Sheb]

Ok, can we not call each other Nazis? This is the Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread.

[scriver]

No, I think bringing up the nazisare very topical when a conservative nationalist like Helgoland tries to paint the left as "traditionally anti-semitic" through the association with groups such as the above, particularly through the use of arguments like:

 

These terrorist acts didn't come out of a vacuum, and their supporters didn't just magically disappear after these groups dissolved.

Because really, what other groups could that apply to, in Germany of all places?

[Sheb]

Helgo is a conservative nationalist? Have you ever spoken to him?

Now, Helgo, I should say that I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make. That there are some antisemitic leftists? I don't think anyone would dispute that, but it's not a particularily interesting point to make. If it's that the left is generally anti-semitic, you're going to need a much better example than this. Even if the sorting according to religion did happen (which is not clear, so supporters of the group could just ignore it), it kinda make sense. Israel sees all Jews as its own, an unfortunate corollary is that it makes any Jew an effective target. In that sense, you could decide to take Jews hostage even if you don't have anything against Jews.

[Phmcw]

Helgo is a conservative nationalist? Have you ever spoken to him?

Now, Helgo, I should say that I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make. That there are some antisemitic leftists? I don't think anyone would dispute that, but it's not a particularily interesting point to make. If it's that the left is generally anti-semitic, you're going to need a much better example than this. Even if the sorting according to religion did happen (which is not clear, so supporters of the group could just ignore it), it kinda make sense. Israel sees all Jews as its own, an unfortunate corollary is that it makes any Jew an effective target. In that sense, you could decide to take Jews hostage even if you don't have anything against Jews.

I'm not going to quote anything because I think that it's a stupid way to do non-academic work. "Serious sources" are only "peer reviewed work in a reputable publication that I understand and trust in this particular instance. And I should reproduce the experience again just to be sure".



Yet if you hang out long enough with the anarcho-leftist crowd, you'll find out a lot of antisemitism. I think that it's because Israël is NATO aligned, and thus the USSR did quite a bit of propanda against them. The communists parties of Europe never got completely over USSR propaganda (their propaganda was prevalent and seen as true until far into the seventies).


There are other reasons.

[Sheb]

I spent a lot of times with anarcho-leftist*, and while many a virulently anti-Israel, I've never met antisemite in real life, and seen maybe a few on Facebook. Never seemed more prevalent than among non-extreme-leftists. Not impossible I missed it, but I don't think so.

* I actually sat at a meeting with an actual far-left terrorist, ex from the CCC. Really nice guy.

[Antsan]

Most of my contacts are anarchists or communists. If anything, they romanticize Judaism in comparison to Christianity. Anti-Israel sentiments are more common, but those don't rest on some kind of antisemitism but on how Israel acts as a state. They make no difference to the USA, China, Germany or Russia in this regard.

[Helgoland]

Yet if you hang out long enough with the anarcho-leftist crowd, you'll find out a lot of antisemitism.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm (obviously, I hope) not calling all leftists anti-semites, but I maintain that the far left has its own distinct tradition of anti-semitism, which has survived to this day and often masquerades as Israel criticism.
Of course, drawing the line between legitimate Israel criticism and true anti-semitism is difficult. That may explain why Sheb claims to never have met an anti-semite: His standards are probably (almost certainly, looking at my own opinions on Middle East politics) different than mine.



And scriver, conservative nationalist? Really? Conservative I might accept, if preceded by a sufficient amount of qualifiers - since I'm mostly progressive when it comes to concrete issues-, but nationalist? Me, one of the most rabidly pro-EU forumites? (And coming from you, who I distinctly remember to have a fairly nationalist position when it comes to EU matters?)

[TD1]

Don't lie, Helgo. Behind that beard, you're not Marx. You're Hitler.

Joking, of course, in case someone hits me in the face with a gauntlet.

[scriver]

And scriver, conservative nationalist? Really? Conservative I might accept, if preceded by a sufficient amount of qualifiers - since I'm mostly progressive when it comes to concrete issues-, but nationalist? Me, one of the most rabidly pro-EU forumites? (And coming from you, who I distinctly remember to have a fairly nationalist position when it comes to EU matters?)

The difference is that I don't deny those nationalist leanings.

And yeah, I don't think you'd be as "rabidly pro-EU" if you didn't think of it as an extension of Germany. That sort of neo-imperialish sentiment certainly seems common among Germans. I, on the other hand, am certainly not against European cooperation, I'm just not for the system we have now or they way it is heading.

[Helgoland]

if you didn't think of it as an extension of Germany

[citation needed]

Are you against the idea of European integration, though? Cooperation is a rubbery term - the true watershed is support for the eventual abolishion of the nation state. We can talk about the ills and failures of the current EU as well, though - there certainly are many.

[i2amroy]

Are you against the idea of European integration, though? Cooperation is a rubbery term - the true watershed is support for the eventual abolishion of the nation state. We can talk about the ills and failures of the current EU as well, though - there certainly are many.

And then you will finally come to realize the facts that us Americans realized centuries ago, One Union, Under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For All.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. )

[scriver]

Of course I am against "European integration", particularly your kind where "integration" is just another word for "becoming German". And don't pretend "european integration" is about "abolishing the nation state"; it's just about creating a new, fake, pan-european nation state.

[Helgoland]

Fake? Nation? What European nation are you talking about? Why do you think such integration would need to stop at Europe's borders? The only words in there I can agree with are 'new' and 'state', really.
And I am becoming more and more confused about the way you use 'German' - what does that word mean to you? It can't mean German rule, since any European state would certainly be based on democratic principles, and thus Europe wouldn't be any more German-ruled than the US is a Californian tyranny. Is it about policies you perceive as German?

Finally, what makes you oppose the very idea of merging the European nations in whatever form?