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[Baffler]

Yeah, there's a reason everyone remembers Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi, rather than Malcolm X and Bal Gangadhar Tilak. Violence only alienates people who didn't already agree, invites more violence from opponents, and gives authorities exactly the excuse they need to smear the opposition into the dirt. If this were a Type 2 nation (to use Helgo's system again) then violence is the only option, and I'd be happy to go to any length to remove it from above my head. The United States is not a Type 2 nation.

[smeeprocket]

You prefer domestic terrorism?

that's not terrorism, that's defending your community. Open carry is legal there, nothing terrorist or illegal is being done.

It's the same thing white people have been doing for some time, just with a different skin color. And more justified because the police pose a real and present danger to black people in these communities.

[smeeprocket]

Yeah, there's a reason everyone remembers Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi, rather than Malcolm X and Bal Gangadhar Tilak. Violence only alienates people who didn't already agree, invites more violence from opponents, and gives authorities exactly the excuse they need to smear the opposition into the dirt. If this were a Type 2 nation (to use Helgo's system again) then violence is the only option, and I'd be happy to go to any length to remove it from above my head. The United States is not a Type 2 nation.

it's because no one likes an aggressive black man, actually.

Also, gandhi was a massive racist that slept naked next to his nieces to restore his energy. People don't always remember the good guys.

[Graknorke]

Do you want people to like aggressive black men?

[Baffler]

it's because no one likes an aggressive black man, actually.

Also, gandhi was a massive racist that slept naked next to his nieces to restore his energy. People don't always remember the good guys.

As long as this is presented as a question of race (or gender for that matter), I don't think there can ever be any meaningful progress. Like it or not, <25% of the people in this country are unlikely to carry sweeping electoral changes on their own. Rhetoric like that only alienates people whose support is necessary to make any gains at the polls. The alternative is tyranny by a small subset of the population, something that our system is literally designed to prevent. It's perfectly fine to address racial issues, but "white people are terrible and if they disappeared everything would be fine" does not a solid platform make.

[Helgoland]

smeep, did you ever read about Mandela? Not just about his status as a great champion of human dignity, as the abolisher of apartheid, but about the sstuff he did before? About Umkhonto we Sizwe? About rubbernecking? About the land mine campaigns that were only stopped because they killed more black farmhands than white farmers' families?
Mandela used to be a terrorist. And with terrorist methods he accomplished - jack shit. What do we remember him for? Not for his military campaigns, but for his long imprisonment and subsequent will to reconcile.

The only good thing a terrorist can do is inspire those around him to pursue their goals by other means by creating disgust at the killing of innocents. The only good thing a terrorist can do is to show what a bad path he has chosen.

[Strife26]

Call me a bad man, but Rhodesia really doesn't seem like it was that bad of a place.

[smeeprocket]

I disagree. There is a place for both peace and war.

Besides no one is killing anyone. They are simply patrolling the streets with their constitutionally (I can't believe I am using this argument) approved assault rifles. They are protecting the lives of their neighbors.

This has been going on a long time. MLK jr only got us so far.

This IS about race. You can not frame it any other way. You don't have to vilify white people to do it, but the fact that it is racially based needs to be recognized (and yes I know the Black Panthers tend to vilify white people, though I have often found them misogynistic and was impressed that women were involved in this.)

My point about the angry black man trope is, this is not a problem if you are white. You can be an angry white man and get things done, but the white majority fears the angry black man, and will see that image more often than not, as we see with the descriptions by the officer in the brown case.

Society wants to erase angry black men, but they want to find out why a white man is angry. That is wrong.

[x2yzh9]

  One of the biggest problems in todays world is the leftover facts of imperialism and the start of the industrial revolution, slavery was an abominable creation of business men, and this is why I think they're angry at the establishment: time. They still havn't gotten what they want and I believe they do deserve(equality) but because of the absolutely massive rift that's already there, how in the world are you going to heal that? I am not a racist but I do believe that after MLK died they were lost, as if the one man was a martyr for their entire race.

   No, unfortunately white privilege is real. I'd like to live in a country that has an electoral congress removed, an open party system(that means open partys completely, not just left-or-right wing, and yes that means a democracy but I don't think we could handle that just yet. The system is highly inept at this point, because of the stuff that straight up happened after MLK died. They lost their martyr and it was devastating, I absolutely disagree with malcolm X's ideologies. They just inherently do not and will not, ever work. Also police should be out there with an open mind but they can't because they're in the ghettos of society that america has created for itself; and there's your good cop bad cop conundrum too. It's a systemic corruption that lies in what we have buried ourselves in so all I can say right now is that we reap what we sow, as one nation, or as the rest of the world's. And I can tell you this:the day we wake up to climate change as a part of our society is the day things reach a tipping point. You can't just hold it off. You have to collectively do something about it, but in there lies my pessimism to the human race. The cold war? Yea, I can bet you a lot of the testing contributed to what we have today. It's all a system of a downs as I would like to call it.

[smeeprocket]

  One of the biggest problems in todays world is the leftover facts of imperialism and the start of the industrial revolution, slavery was an abominable creation of business men, and this is why I think they're angry at the establishment: time. They still havn't gotten what they want and I believe they do deserve(equality) but because of the absolutely massive rift that's already there, how in the world are you going to heal that? I am not a racist but I do believe that after MLK died they were lost, as if the one man was a martyr for their entire race.

   No, unfortunately white privilege is real. I'd like to live in a country that has an electoral congress removed, an open party system(that means open partys completely, not just left-or-right wing, and yes that means a democracy but I don't think we could handle that just yet. The system is highly inept at this point, because of the stuff that straight up happened after MLK died. They lost their martyr and it was devastating, I absolutely disagree with malcolm X's ideologies. They just inherently do not and will not, ever work. Also police should be out there with an open mind but they can't because they're in the ghettos of society that america has created for itself; and there's your good cop bad cop conundrum too. It's a systemic corruption that lies in what we have buried ourselves in so all I can say right now is that we reap what we sow, as one nation, or as the rest of the world's. And I can tell you this:the day we wake up to climate change as a part of our society is the day things reach a tipping point. You can't just hold it off. You have to collectively do something about it, but in there lies my pessimism to the human race. The cold war? Yea, I can bet you a lot of the testing contributed to what we have today. It's all a system of a downs as I would like to call it.

the bold is pretty racist, or at least ignores a fuck ton of activists and people who have created real and lasting change since then. Also, if you ever have to lead off with the phrase "I am not a racist, but" or "some of my best friends are <insert minority group here>" whatever you say has a high likelihood of being racist.

[Baffler]

this is not a problem if you are white

Bullshit. This is not a problem if you are wealthy. It may or may not be worse for racial minorities, but it is irrelevant either way. The poor treatment of the poor is everyone's problem and as I said before framing it as a racial issue only alienates a big bulk of people who would otherwise support wholeheartedly. Saying "they're just being racist" and calling it a day as you seem to be doing does a tremendous disservice to both sides and does almost as much to scare off support for demilitarizing and otherwise dialing back the police as the police themselves.

[smeeprocket]

this is not a problem if you are white

Bullshit. This is not a problem if you are wealthy. It may or may not be worse for racial minorities, but it is irrelevant either way. The poor treatment of the poor is everyone's problem and as I said before framing it as a racial issue only alienates a big bulk of people who would otherwise support wholeheartedly. Saying "they're just being racist" and calling it a day as you seem to be doing does a tremendous disservice to both sides and does almost as much to scare off support for demilitarizing and otherwise dialing back the police as the police themselves.

this is erasure. Yes, you will get treated badly if you are poor, but the likelihood that a cop will shoot the fuck out of you when you are unarmed and not acting aggressive is significantly less.

Playing the whole "omg gais let's be humanists instead" just marginalizes already marginalized minority groups and allows the most powerful voices in the room to continue speaking over the oppressed.

[Graknorke]

Playing the whole "omg gais let's be humanists instead" just marginalizes already marginalized minority groups and allows the most powerful voices in the room to continue speaking over the oppressed.

Can you explain that end bit? I understand how it's not improving anything, but why would it make things worse amongst the people who are working for whatever it is they're working for?

[x2yzh9]

People are just going to continue using the white man v. black man as an analogy to good cop v bad cop. If my post came off as racist then I am sincerely sorry but I'm just pointing out some major flaws of the system that you can't erase, you have to reform it from the inside out.

[smeeprocket]

Playing the whole "omg gais let's be humanists instead" just marginalizes already marginalized minority groups and allows the most powerful voices in the room to continue speaking over the oppressed.

Can you explain that end bit? I understand how it's not improving anything, but why would it make things worse amongst the people who are working for whatever it is they're working for?

a couple things.

First off, we can fight both for poor white people (we don't have to ignore them) and also focus in on the struggle of black people. None of this is mutually exclusive. I feel like that's the impression some people get. Like we have to focus all our effort on everyone at the exact same time in the exact same way, which frankly, favors people with more power in the kyriarchy.

We can see an example of the problem with the LGBTQIA+ movement. After the Stonewall riots, there were warnings that if they let this, it would become a white middle class movement, and not a movement for everyone. It has become that. The change we've seen is gay marriage (a noble goal) in most states, but things like gay conversion therapy and trans rights remain unchanged. The face of the lgbt community is white. It is middle class. And now you have some members calling for the LGB part (and chances are they don't think to highly of the B) to extract themselves from the trans part, because it's not their issue. Because they want to focus on their rights.

Different people are oppressed in different ways. It's not a hierarchy or an oppression olympics, but we need to focus on those problems specific to each group, and give them equal attention, or only those most benefited by the kyriarchy among the oppressed will see any returns.

We see this with males talking over and silencing females during these police protests, by the call for police to stop murdering black men and boys but the complete lack of recognition of the many women and girls slaughtered by the police force.

Does that makes sense?