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[penguinofhonor]

Eh, yeah, I think I was m a little too harsh on Max. I'm on my phone and at work and this thread is moving really fast so I mentally mixed up a few different posts.

My points to Max still stand because I think he was being a little more aggravating than necessary with the "Teach women not to mace!" bit, but Willfor's post was a bigger problem than Max's (which I think everyone else has already concluded).

Apologies if I reacted too hastily and misjudged the situation a bit. I just hate when I'm away from the thread and it blows up and Toady has to come in and clean up.

[Vector]

The point is that first people consider any rape that's not stranger danger "not what rape is really like," tell women that it's their fault and need to protect themselves--and that 1/6 of them will be raped, and then guys feel offended by the women, as opposed to by the rapists causing this problem, if they're asked to give lone women late at night a wide berth.

*shrog*

[smirk]

Yes, that. If the society in which you live glosses over or distorts rape and assault, and teaches women to fear for their lives as their main defense, then the correct action is to change that society, not get huffy at females when said attitudes adversely affect you. We're all in this together, after all.

[Sheb]

I agree with you, but is this a step in the right direction, or does it just reinforce the problem?

[Max White]

You know I think a nice start would be if in movies mace spray was at least occasionally shown realistically, instead of having all the effectiveness as spraying water. If the audience sees a guy spend the next fifteen minutes on the ground before an ambulance turns up because he could choke to death then people carrying spray might be a little more hesitant to use the stuff so quickly, and predators might actually be worried about people carrying it, making it a more effective preventative measure than a reactionary measure... Although it is pretty hard to try and enforce what the media will and will not show.

A more effective measure might be required licencing to buy and carry the stuff. Take a quick course to get your license, teach people about safety, effective actions leading up to use, checking for expiry date, storage, all that good stuff. If really required you could include getting maced as part of the course, as they do in police training, but I'm not 100% convinced that would be required. At the same time I think actually having a formal process would legitimize carrying mace, making more people consider it an an option. Ultimately you are buying mace so you can use it as a non-lethal weapon if required, I think that merits some training.

[Loud Whispers]

Yes, that. If the society in which you live glosses over or distorts rape and assault, and teaches women to fear for their lives as their main defense, then the correct action is to change that society, not get huffy at females when said attitudes adversely affect you. We're all in this together, after all.

Is it really so hard not to just be cautious and reasonable? Why the hell do you have to walk between two extremes where everyone is launching preemptive assaults on one another or politely rolling over to make it easier for thuggery to operate? How the hell is complaining about getting maced for no reason getting 'huffy at females' over being 'adversely' affected?

You know I think a nice start would be if in movies mace spray was at least occasionally shown realistically, instead of having all the effectiveness as spraying water.

That's like asking hollywood to stop making cars explode or news stations to stop wanking on mass shootings. It won't happen in this lifetime.

[Graknorke]

The point is that first people consider any rape that's not stranger danger "not what rape is really like," tell women that it's their fault and need to protect themselves--and that 1/6 of them will be raped, and then guys feel offended by the women, as opposed to by the rapists causing this problem, if they're asked to give lone women late at night a wide berth.

*shrog*

Ah yes, the male hivemind that controls every facet of society. Forgot about that one.

[Max White]

That's like asking hollywood to stop making cars explode or news stations to stop wanking on mass shootings. It won't happen in this lifetime.

I still hold hope that one day there will be a really great, realistic action movie that isn't Om Bak. 

[Loud Whispers]

That's like asking hollywood to stop making cars explode or news stations to stop wanking on mass shootings. It won't happen in this lifetime.

I still hold hope that one day there will be a really great, realistic action movie that isn't Om Bak. 

Except that the female lead sounds like a dolphin. Pretty sure she's a dolphin. The raid on the other hand...

[Blargityblarg]

The point is that first people consider any rape that's not stranger danger "not what rape is really like," tell women that it's their fault and need to protect themselves--and that 1/6 of them will be raped, and then guys feel offended by the women, as opposed to by the rapists causing this problem, if they're asked to give lone women late at night a wide berth.

*shrog*

Ah yes, the male hivemind that controls every facet of society. Forgot about that one.

...There is no 'male hivemind' mentioned anywhere in this post. Society (both men and women) has a shitty attitude towards some things, and ideally we should work together to change that. 'Patriarchy' is sort of a misnomer; it conjures this idea of a secret group controlling society, when it's really more that the logical conclusion of the general public's attitudes towards things is old white guys tending to be in charge of a lot of things.

[smirk]

I agree with you, but is this a step in the right direction, or does it just reinforce the problem?

Probably neither or just a bit of both, really; avoidance is mostly a stalling tactic. Like you said earlier, being nice and polite is a good thing - you just hafta be aware that even when you do that there'll still be times when people will fear you anyway, and getting mad over that doesn't help. It's a part (or symptom) of the process. That's why statements like Max White's from earlier...

You can't just say 'Well she thought she was being attacked, so fuck that guy, even if he was just trying to make his way home!'

...aren't helpful. It's a false dichotomy. You're not choosing sides in some fictitious struggle, you're trying to get those two to find common ground.

Which admittedly is difficult, when one is running away and the other's soft tissues are full of capsaicin. But it was never gonna be easy  =P

You know I think a nice start would be if in movies mace spray was at least occasionally shown realistically, instead of having all the effectiveness as spraying water. If the audience sees a guy spend the next fifteen minutes on the ground before an ambulance turns up because he could choke to death then people carrying spray might be a little more hesitant to use the stuff so quickly, and predators might actually be worried about people carrying it, making it a more effective preventative measure than a reactionary measure... Although it is pretty hard to try and enforce what the media will and will not show.

A more effective measure might be required licencing to buy and carry the stuff. Take a quick course to get your license, teach people about safety, effective actions leading up to use, checking for expiry date, storage, all that good stuff. If really required you could include getting maced as part of the course, as they do in police training, but I'm not 100% convinced that would be required. At the same time I think actually having a formal process would legitimize carrying mace, making more people consider it an an option. Ultimately you are buying mace so you can use it as a non-lethal weapon if required, I think that merits some training.

Agreed; mace is dangerous stuff and should be more accurately presented. Not a lot of other options, though. Tasers maybe? On second thought, no. Definitely not Tasers.

Yes, that. If the society in which you live glosses over or distorts rape and assault, and teaches women to fear for their lives as their main defense, then the correct action is to change that society, not get huffy at females when said attitudes adversely affect you. We're all in this together, after all.

Is it really so hard not to just be cautious and reasonable?

When your whole life you have "stranger danger" shoved in your face, and are taught to fear an entire gender under fairly common circumstances? And when even talking about rape and assault is culturally frowned upon? Yes.

Why the hell do you have to walk between two extremes where everyone is launching preemptive assaults on one another or politely rolling over to make it easier for thuggery to operate?

Well, sane middle ground is only found between extremes =D

How the hell is complaining about getting maced for no reason getting 'huffy at females' over being 'adversely' affected?

It's about seeing things from the other person's point of view. Getting maced is a terrible thing. But being taught to fear constantly is also terrible. Neither is good, and getting mad at one at the expense of the other, or saying one is more valid than the other, doesn't help. Is my point.

You know I think a nice start would be if in movies mace spray was at least occasionally shown realistically, instead of having all the effectiveness as spraying water.

That's like asking hollywood to stop making cars explode or news stations to stop wanking on mass shootings. It won't happen in this lifetime.

Still something we need to work towards, though.


Gaaah. I type too slowly.

[Max White]

Agreed; mace is dangerous stuff and should be more accurately presented. Not a lot of other options, though. Tasers maybe? On second thought, no. Definitely not Tasers.

You know if we are going to go tasers why not at least do it right and encourage people to use mech walkers equip with rockets and rail guns...  Actually come to think of it, the level of training required would pretty much reduce misuse to naught, so it might be a good idea. 

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, since we're not allowed to walk between extremes, let's turn in another direction.

Mass surveillance, Cameras on Every corner, personal drones following you home, ensuring everyone is save and secure.

[smirk]

Anyway, since we're not allowed to walk between extremes, let's turn in another direction.

Mass surveillance, Cameras on Every corner, personal drones following you home, ensuring everyone is save and secure.

So, London? =P

[Max White]

Anyway, since we're not allowed to walk between extremes, let's turn in another direction.

Mass surveillance, Cameras on Every corner, personal drones following you home, ensuring everyone is save and secure.

I'm not sure what people have against public surveillance... There are enough cameras in Sydney that police can have some control over street crime, although the interesting effect here is that while crime continues to go down, publicity of that crime goes up and people think it is becoming more of a problem, so anti-crime policy gets more and more extreme, and that might be a good thing to some degree, just not as draconian as we see here.