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[Blargityblarg]

I think the comparison to Jews is Nazi Germany is pretty apt, and if anyone disagrees I'd like them to explain why.

http://rt.com/news/russia-jews-fry-comment-396/
Thoughts? I've always wondered why the hell people should care about the democratically voted laws of another country. And the logic of it is appealing as well. Still, your thoughts Bay12?

We should care about the "democratically" (considering it's Putin you have to use the word fairly lightly) voted laws of another country when they are about to win a huge propaganda victory thanks to major international sporting events that we are supporting.  Particularly if those laws involve are openly bigoted.

What do you think about the 1936 Olympics?  Was it a good idea to allow Hitler to have an internationally supported celebration of Aryanism?  I mean, all those laws restricting the rights of Jews were just the democratically voted laws of another country.

people just don't care that russia is a different nation where the status quo for homosexuals is at least a mild dislike because all the countries in the world must conform to their set of beliefs

let's ignore that homosexuality is generally not accepted outside of the west and rage at those wacky russians, right? let's not notice that the same kind of stuff happened when the laws weren't in place (and was widely ignored by the police) but now that the government tries to not make itself look like fools whose decrees are only executed when people find them nice there's an outcry comparable to what i suspect would be the fallout of the leader of germany straight up denying the holocaust and nobody in the government giving a shit

i mean shit, it's generally bad in post-soviet countries if you're not "as normal as possible, but not too normal" and as far inside the closet as the closet goes but you should be looking at kyrgyzstan if you want to be annoyed - no wait, nobody fucking cares about kyrgyzstan. the light that could be shining onto this entire piece of shit situation is about as misplaced as you could put it, short of pointing it at sweden or something

Kyrgyzstan isn't going to be hosting the Olympics.  Your moral relativism argument is bullshit (you could equally say in 1936 that most countries didn't accept Jews, so why get annoyed at Germany?) and the fact that the government is officially siding with the bigots is a serious issue.

1. Nope. It's a complete bullshit argument. Preventing Propaganda != Shit like what the Nazis did.
2. Again, democratically voted. The whole bullshit " Putin is an oppressive dictator conservative racist nazi!" argument has no ground. Russia went to huge lengths to make the elections transparent. It's obvious that there is some sort of bias in these things. Also, " Propaganda victory"? How the hell does Olympics= Anti-homosexual propaganda victory?
3. Remember the guy who got lots of golds at those 1936 Olympics? No? Alright then. And yes, it is fully their right in government to prevent people meddling in children's young orientation development.
4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

Mate, what? They're not combatting some massive outburst of 'gays r better than u lol', they're taking a second run at stomping on the existence of gay people. They are not providing a neutral environment. They are providing an environment where, for all intents and purposes, gay people do not exist.

[alexandertnt]

4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

The issue is that people are concerned they will be used to stop discussion about homosexuality altogether, given how broard the meaning of the term "propaganda" can be stretched.
Plus show me one group of significant influence (ie not just a single crazy person somewhere on the internet) that are "attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior".

That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment

Are hetrosexuals banned from "attempting to play up hetrosexuals as something superior"?

[Yoink]

Whoah... sometimes the discussions on this forum terrify me.
I've written and re-written a long wordy post in my head, but sadly my ability to "progressively discuss" things whilst still remaining "calm and cool" is somewhat lacking. It's not a muscle I get a chance to exercise outside of the internet, after all.

Instead, I'll make a poor, possibly somewhat inflammatory attempt at humour and say: the day unlabelled GMO food becomes a common thing on supermarket shelves is the day I flee to a cave in the wilderness and try my hand at becoming one of those crazy survivalist types. (And probably die in the process, but ehh, it'd be preferable to the alternative.)

[alexandertnt]

And probably die in the process, but ehh, it'd be preferable to the alternative.

Probably dying is preferable to probably living on probably harmless GM food

[Yoink]

That there is a lot of "probably"s!
Why yes I do consider myself a gambling man. I call your GMO produce and raise you a flock of bloodthirsty wild wombats.

[MonkeyHead]

The food you eat already is genetically modified. Granted, this modification takes the form of artificial selection to bring out desired characteristics over many, many generations rather than the short cut of splicing and dicing, but there is nothing natural at all about agriculture.

I think I prefer the term "genetically enhanced" rather than "genetically modified".

[kingfisher1112]

Mate, what? They're not combatting some massive outburst of 'gays r better than u lol', they're taking a second run at stomping on the existence of gay people. They are not providing a neutral environment. They are providing an environment where, for all intents and purposes, gay people do not exist.

I'm sorry, what about all that stuff coming out of places around here saying " Gay parents raise smarter kids!" No propaganda there.

4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

The issue is that people are concerned they will be used to stop discussion about homosexuality altogether, given how broard the meaning of the term "propaganda" can be stretched.
Plus show me one group of significant influence (ie not just a single crazy person somewhere on the internet) that are "attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior".

That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment

Are hetrosexuals banned from "attempting to play up hetrosexuals as something superior"?

See above. And it also bans imagery stuff as the rainbow flag. Also note how it's not illegal to be gay in Russia. Inb4 slippery slope.

[Loud Whispers]

http://rt.com/news/russia-jews-fry-comment-396/
Thoughts? I've always wondered why the hell people should care about the democratically voted laws of another country. And the logic of it is appealing as well. Still, your thoughts Bay12?

Countries where homosexuality is legally punished by death: Maldives, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Somaliland, Nigeria, Mauritania, Sudan
Countries where homosexuality is cause for life imprisonment: Sierra Leone, Uganda, Tanzania, Guyana
Countries where homosexuality is cause for whipping: Malawi, Maldives, Malaysia
Countries where homosexuality is cause for imprisonment but not for life [though it may last for years]: Algeria, Libya, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Liberia, Nigeria, Senegal, Togo, Cameroon, Burundi, Eritrea, Kenya, Uganda, Comoros, Mauritius, Seychelles, Malawi, Zambia, Western Sahara, Somaliland, Belize, Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait, Oman, Palestinian Territories, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Tuvalu, Tonga, Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Malaysia,  Brunei, Saudi Arabia.
Countries where free speech is crushed by disallowing the publication of any positive lgbt media: Russia, Lebanon, all of the above.
Countries people give a fuck about: Russia.
I guess it's just a case of people only really empathizing with whatever's in front of them, whatever's given to them. If you ask me, every Olympics should be held in Russia if you want to see it fall, the whole bloody thing's a waste of money that is in itself a perpetuation of human rights violations.

i'd usually hate to undermine something that is basically one of my points put into better words but from where did you get that list? i feel it might be very useful to me sometime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
*EDIT
Of course, don't just trust wikipedia. Search the news of each country.

[10ebbor10]

Instead, I'll make a poor, possibly somewhat inflammatory attempt at humour and say: the day unlabelled GMO food becomes a common thing on supermarket shelves is the day I flee to a cave in the wilderness and try my hand at becoming one of those crazy survivalist types. (And probably die in the process, but ehh, it'd be preferable to the alternative.)

Depending on how far the term GMO stretches, and where you live, that might already be the case.

[Max White]

1. Nope. It's a complete bullshit argument. Preventing Propaganda != Shit like what the Nazis did.
2. Again, democratically voted. The whole bullshit " Putin is an oppressive dictator conservative racist nazi!" argument has no ground. Russia went to huge lengths to make the elections transparent. It's obvious that there is some sort of bias in these things. Also, " Propaganda victory"? How the hell does Olympics= Anti-homosexual propaganda victory?
3. Remember the guy who got lots of golds at those 1936 Olympics? No? Alright then. And yes, it is fully their right in government to prevent people meddling in children's young orientation development.
4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

1. Preventing propaganda? What do you think that means? Please do tell, what do you think Putin means when he says he is stopping homosexual propaganda?
2. Democratically voted is not a licence to do as you please (See Egypt for an example) Putin is an oppressive dictator who is keeping his throne by oppressing a minority instead of everybody, and dictating what sexuality is acceptable.
3. Part of the Olympic debate is that we want to send people over there to compete and watch. It isn't safe for some of these people. It doesn't matter if anybody remembers who wins what events. Fuck I have no idea who did anything last Olympics, the point is that it isn't safe.
4. As people have been doing? Can you provide evidence of this? Also, see 1.

[Yoink]

The food you eat already is genetically modified. Granted, this modification takes the form of artificial selection to bring out desired characteristics over many, many generations rather than the short cut of splicing and dicing, but there is nothing natural at all about agriculture.

I think I prefer the term "genetically enhanced" rather than "genetically modified".

Yeah.
If I bought my own food & actually took proper care of myself I would probably be far more discerning as to what I eat...
As it is I'm doubtless killing myself with the heavily-processed rubbish I eat every day.

[kingfisher1112]

1. Nope. It's a complete bullshit argument. Preventing Propaganda != Shit like what the Nazis did.
2. Again, democratically voted. The whole bullshit " Putin is an oppressive dictator conservative racist nazi!" argument has no ground. Russia went to huge lengths to make the elections transparent. It's obvious that there is some sort of bias in these things. Also, " Propaganda victory"? How the hell does Olympics= Anti-homosexual propaganda victory?
3. Remember the guy who got lots of golds at those 1936 Olympics? No? Alright then. And yes, it is fully their right in government to prevent people meddling in children's young orientation development.
4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

1. Preventing propaganda? What do you think that means? Please do tell, what do you think Putin means when he says he is stopping homosexual propaganda?
2. Democratically voted is not a licence to do as you please (See Egypt for an example) Putin is an oppressive dictator who is keeping his throne by oppressing a minority instead of everybody, and dictating what sexuality is acceptable.
3. Part of the Olympic debate is that we want to send people over there to compete and watch. It isn't safe for some of these people. It doesn't matter if anybody remembers who wins what events. Fuck I have no idea who did anything last Olympics, the point is that it isn't safe.
4. As people have been doing? Can you provide evidence of this? Also, see 1.

1. Preventing people " Playing up" homosexuality as more than it is: A genetic abnormality. A lot of people seem to think it's some wonder ability that turns you into a great friend, intelligent person and the greatest parent ever.
2. Why isn't it? That is how democracy works. Do you think it's fair for a minority to take away the rights of everybody? No? Then go protest anti-gun lobbies in the US.
3. Didn't the guy state in the article that nobody would be oppressed or anything similar?
4. Funnily enough, see 1.

[Leafsnail]

how does a sport event have any, any correlation with bigots? there always were bigots and always will be bigots.

It implies that the international community supports their bigotry, as in 1936, thus strengthening the government.  We should not be actively helping to give them legitimacy.

i didn't claim the government is siding with them, because it bloody well isn't, at least not more than it was previously (since that seems to be your point in this case). the law doesn't say "well normally you're forbidden to do this but if you feel like doing it to a homosexual go ahead"

Gay people are being beaten up on a regular basis.  The police are completely ignoring this.  Everyone knows it.

In response, the government passes a law to criminalize activism for gay rights (such as the right to not be beaten up), instead of, say, attempting to make sure that bigots are arrested.  That is very much siding with the bigots.

oh and sure let's not get annoyed at this whole hitler thing it was all because of these silly jews, should have just left europe altogether since nobody accepted them there i like your thinking how about we make a country for lgbts and say "fuck it, we're done, segregation time" like they themselves did after the fact

I can only parse this paragraph as an attack on your own argument.  What are you trying to say?

1. Nope. It's a complete bullshit argument. Preventing Propaganda != Shit like what the Nazis did.
2. Again, democratically voted. The whole bullshit " Putin is an oppressive dictator conservative racist nazi!" argument has no ground. Russia went to huge lengths to make the elections transparent. It's obvious that there is some sort of bias in these things. Also, " Propaganda victory"? How the hell does Olympics= Anti-homosexual propaganda victory?
3. Remember the guy who got lots of golds at those 1936 Olympics? No? Alright then. And yes, it is fully their right in government to prevent people meddling in children's young orientation development.
4. It's not bigotry. That's the thing, it provides a neutral environment. ( The laws against propaganda) and stops them from attempting to play up homosexuality as something superior. ( As people have been doing.)

I'm honestly amazed at how completely you've fallen for the Russian party line.

To 1 and 4: The law is to be used to target gay activists asking for actual human rights.  I didn't think that anyone would be tricked by the fact that they labelled the bill "gay propaganda" (as if that's a thing that exists), but apparently you were.  And if it were about creating a "neutral environment" then they'd ban "heterosexual propaganda" as well.

To 2:  How about the irregularities in the elections reported by international observers?  In the presidential elections Putin's opposition was crushed by government spending, and the parliamentary elections were rigged by ballot stuffing.

Hosting the Olympics allows there to be a massive celebration of your country, and is thus a clear propaganda victory you wouldn't want to hand to a bigoted nation.  It also implies that the international community is ok with what they're doing.

To 3: The fact that Jesse Owens got 4 gold medals doesn't really outweigh the fact that the Germans won the overall competition, and were thus allowed Hitler to claim an overall victory for his ideology.  We also can't really guarantee that a gay athelete will win lots of golds.

[Max White]

1. Preventing people " Playing up" homosexuality as more than it is: A genetic abnormality. A lot of people seem to think it's some wonder ability that turns you into a great friend, intelligent person and the greatest parent ever.
2. Why isn't it? That is how democracy works. Do you think it's fair for a minority to take away the rights of everybody? No? Then go protest anti-gun lobbies in the US.
3. Didn't the guy state in the article that nobody would be oppressed or anything similar?
4. Funnily enough, see 1.

1. Then how can you justify the Four Dutch tourists that were arrested under these laws, despite the fact that they weren't promoting the kind of propaganda you just described?
2. No! No it isn't! Democracy is meant to protect the voice of minorities, not enforce the tyranny of the majority. This is a really important pillar that the society you live in was built on.
3. Tourists. Dutch. Gay. Arrested. Explain.
4. Saying that sort of propaganda exists IS NOT proof that people are promoting that. On that logic I can prove spider man exists.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah.
If I bought my own food & actually took proper care of myself I would probably be far more discerning as to what I eat...
As it is I'm doubtless killing myself with the heavily-processed rubbish I eat every day.

Start growing peas/wild strawberries if you have vertical growing space, or else potatoes/lettuces. They're relatively easy foods to start with.

In response, the government passes a law to criminalize activism for gay rights (such as the right to not be beaten up), instead of, say, attempting to make sure that bigots are arrested.  That is very much siding with the bigots.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Russians just hate activism.