Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

They certainly don't restrict your ability to export to non-EU countries.

And "not being part" of a trade bloc would NOT increase your exports within that trade bloc. The only thing that would possibly assist that is if every single country you want to export more to left the trade bloc.

It's pretty illogical to think that leaving the EU would spur exports to other EU countries.

[GreatJustice]

It's kind of implied by all the "debt crisis" articles which call it a Europe-wide crisis then mainly discuss Greece. Like this one from FOX:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/12/nobel-peace-prize-to-be-announced-by-committee-in-oslo/

Which oddly enough gives a run-down of what austerity measures (like Romney/Ryan spending cuts) actually do to your economy:

Right now, Europe is stuck in a three-year financial crisis caused by too much government debt. To combat this, governments across the region have imposed harsh tax and spending measures to bring their deficits under control. However a fall in government spending has had a damping effect on Europe's economy — in the second quarter of this year, the EU's gross domestic product shrank 0.2 percent compared to the previous quarter. A wide variety of indicators are pointing to a further slump in the third quarter.

The austerity measures have also hit jobs — the EU's unemployment rate is currently 10.5 percent. But some countries such as Spain and Greece have rates as high as 25 percent. In Spain, every other person under 25 is unemployed.

And that's trying to fix a "debt crisis" significantly smaller than the one in America. Kinda laughable that America can smugly say "I told you so" while they're just letting that same snowball get even bigger. Europe's taking the hard medicine before their debts get to the American levels. That actually shows guts, in my book

There's no points awarded for just kicking the can down the street.

Just because the US has its own problem doesn't make the Eurozone's any better.

In fact, the US running up a huge deficit only stands to make the European problems worse, since a weak USA would in turn weaken the countries that import to it, especially Japan and China. Seeing as how Europe's bonds are presently reliant on support from Japan, China, and the Federal Reserve, the US taking a turn for the worse would bring down the Eurozone (the opposite holding true as well).

[Sheb]

Actually, the US is benefiting from the Eurozone crisis in that people are fleeing the European bond markets and investing US Treasury bond, lowering rates. A US debt crisis would be great for the Eurozone for the same reason.

By the way, the US don't have a debt crisis right now. Sure, they've got large deficit. But given the rate they pay on their new debt, they can totally afford it. When you adjust for inflation, they actually have a negative interest rate. The smart thing to do would be to run more debt and invest it in education and infrastructure.

[Reelya]

@GreatJustice: I was more referring to the fact that the "debt crisis" actually refers to a few of the weakest economies of Europe. It's hardly of a scale that's going to devastate all of Europe, but you'd hardly know that from the news articles. Greece is 1.7% of Europe's GDP

When UK, Germany and France are running up debt levels like the USA, then we can talk about a crisis.

[Sheb]

Debt crisis isn't really related to the amount of debt you have. Debt crisis is when your interest rate is so high that you start having difficulties paying your bonds, fueling fear and higher interest rates. The problem with Europe is our shitty government and lack of coordination. The US have more debts, but a more efficient government, and no one think they're going to default. So their interest rates are rock-bottom.

[Reelya]

Which rates in particular? The central bank rates in Europe are 0.75% and in USA 0.25%, it really doesn't add up to much. I'd like to hear some comparative figures on rates charged to consumers though.

Though i did mention that the debt-troubled nations with excessive interest rates on their bonds only make up a tiny fraction of the European GDP. I'd like some info on how this affects the wider Europe, because I haven't seen anyone come up with any.

Here's the same data source showing that bond yields on Germany Treasuries are lower than the united states, showing that the above statements are not true. Germany obviously has no problem selling bonds.

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/germany/

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/us/

[Sheb]

That's the rate the ECB charge banks. Banks charge state 6% in Italy and Spain, 2.5% in France or Belgium, and a whooping 29% for Greece. The US pay 1.6%, in the Eurozone, only Germany pay less than that. (Source from my paper edition of the economist)

[GreatJustice]

@GreatJustice: I was more referring to the fact that the "debt crisis" actually refers to a few of the weakest economies of Europe. It's hardly of a scale that's going to devastate all of Europe, but you'd hardly know that from the news articles. Greece is 1.7% of Europe's GDP

When UK, Germany and France are running up debt levels like the USA, then we can talk about a crisis.

The UK, Germany, and France aren't running up debt levels like the USA, but they all have their own problems. In particular, the UK is teetering on the brink of stagflation, and France's economy has been steadily grinding to a halt.

[Reelya]

Because they're not borrowing $1 trillion per year to pump into the economy, i guess.

Sorry, $1.134 trillion

Anyway, i think that "grinding to a halt" thing is nonsense. the french economy doubled since 2000. and growth has been fine. Google gives 1.7% growth for BOTH USA and France. Are they both "grinding to a halt"?

France managed to get the same growth rate, but with a lower deficit. That also blows away the idea that USA is so much more efficient with how they spend that money.

Now, UK does have 0.7% growth. But they're not even in the Eurozone. So they don't even count as part of the "Eurozone crisis". At least not to explain why Both France and Germany have growth rates equal to or exceeding the United States, while non-Euro UK is stagflating with their magical sovereign currency which should have fixed all the problems.

[scriver]

They certainly don't restrict your ability to export to non-EU countries.

For example, we aren't allowed to export our Swedish apples. Why? Oh, because "they get marks on the skin from being transported". Let's not let people decide if they want to buy them anyway, they need to be banned!

The allusions of "free trade" in the EU is nothing but a bullshit system designed to favour the select few.

And "not being part" of a trade bloc would NOT increase your exports within that trade bloc. The only thing that would possibly assist that is if every single country you want to export more to left the trade bloc.

It's pretty illogical to think that leaving the EU would spur exports to other EU countries.

Well, since the only one who thought that was you, I guess you would feel a bit illogical now. Or, you know, stop jumping to conclusions about what others think and stop putting words in their mouths.

[Reelya]

WTF? if you left the EU, they'd restrict your exports even more. that's how a trade bloc works.
Being a member isn't the root cause of export bans.

What i was saying was illogical is the idea that:

"other countries block my exports" = "cut trade ties". Remember, you were mentioning these export restrictions as an excuse to leave the Union.

[scriver]

WTF? if you left the EU, they'd restrict your exports even more. that's how a trade bloc works.

Nobody has said it wouldn't.


 [/quote] Being a member isn't the root cause of export bans.

What i was saying was illogical is the idea that:

"other countries block my exports" = "cut trade ties". Remember, you were mentioning these export restrictions as an excuse to leave the Union. [/quote]

No, I used it as an example of how the EU is systemically designed to favour the few. I don't want to leave the EU, I'm saying we'll have to unless it changes.

[GreatJustice]

Because they're not borrowing $1 trillion per year to pump into the economy, i guess.

Sorry, $1.134 trillion

Anyway, i think that "grinding to a halt" thing is nonsense. the french economy doubled since 2000. and growth has been fine. Google gives 1.7% growth for BOTH USA and France. Are they both "grinding to a halt"?

France managed to get the same growth rate, but with a lower deficit. That also blows away the idea that USA is so much more efficient with how they spend that money.

Now, UK does have 0.7% growth. But they're not even in the Eurozone. So they don't even count as part of the "Eurozone crisis". At least not to explain why Both France and Germany have growth rates equal to or exceeding the United States, while non-Euro UK is stagflating with their magical sovereign currency which should have fixed all the problems.

Hey, you're the one who said "the UK" here.

French growth certainly isn't impressive when you consider that the bulk of French GDP is government spending now, while the French private sector is getting worse (take, for example, the automobile sector, where French sales have basically collapsed). Certainly they aren't running as much of a deficit, but to run up a deficit like the US would be impressive considering the fact that the US is paying for a gigantic military, bases across the globe, and the capability to strike just about anywhere on short notice.

The US is engaging in massive stimulus that will hurt it in the long term. However, the US at least isn't fleecing its people for cash to pay off the banks. A lot of the European countries have reached the point in the Laffer curve where revenues are actually going down from tax increases as evasion goes up.

[Leafsnail]

French growth certainly isn't impressive when you consider that the bulk of French GDP is government spending now, while the French private sector is getting worse (take, for example, the automobile sector, where French sales have basically collapsed).

And using government money to support the economy is cheating, I won't allow it.

[GreatJustice]

French growth certainly isn't impressive when you consider that the bulk of French GDP is government spending now, while the French private sector is getting worse (take, for example, the automobile sector, where French sales have basically collapsed).

And using government money to support the economy is cheating, I won't allow it.

It doesn't much reflect the state of the economy at all, really. If the government takes money and spends it on bombs, has the economy strengthened at all? Again, the private sector has been experiencing huge layoffs, closures, and losses, something that no amount of responsive government spending will fix.