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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285704 times)

Frumple

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3360 on: September 30, 2012, 07:44:31 pm »

Legal in quite a few states, at least. Haven't they killed a few people? Might be conflating 'em with something that happened a bit back with a boot-camp style wazthing, I'unno.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3362 on: September 30, 2012, 07:46:47 pm »

I don't recall them killing anyone directly, but that would not be including the suicides they cause.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3363 on: September 30, 2012, 07:50:21 pm »

Huzzah! Not much more to say than has already been said.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Wrex

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3364 on: September 30, 2012, 08:02:20 pm »

Excellence. Nobody deserves to have that done to them.
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Sirus

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3365 on: September 30, 2012, 08:33:02 pm »

For the first time in years, I'm proud of my home state's politics. Huzzah!

Just watch though, as out-of-state conservatives come pouring in to fight it :P
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3366 on: September 30, 2012, 09:15:24 pm »

"Pray the gay away" has been one of the larger worries of gay kids for quite some time. I am happy one state outlawed it. Ihope the won't just send the kid accross state lines or worse ...to the gutter.

Still it is something good.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3367 on: September 30, 2012, 09:16:37 pm »

My parents have said, in a roundabout way, that I would've gotten "help" had I come out earlier (such as when I was a teenager, even though I didn't realize I was bi back then).

So it's not an unfounded fear. Not at all.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Fenrir

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3368 on: September 30, 2012, 11:10:08 pm »

How Orwellian.
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Reelya

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3369 on: September 30, 2012, 11:39:32 pm »

Quote from: GreatJustice
Socialized healthcare systems are only effective when you compare them to other socialized healthcare systems, or pseudo-corporatist systems like in the US. When you compare more socialized (Canada, Sweden, UK) with less socialized (Singapore, Hong Kong, Switzerland) you generally find the less socialized ones do a bit better.

Woo, Singapore, Hong Kong and Switzerland are the only "Libertarian" examples you have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore
Quote
Singapore has a highly developed and successful free-market economy; the state owns stakes in firms that comprise perhaps 60% of the GDP[...] Its innovative yet steadfast form of economics that combines economic planning of Singapore Economic Development Board with free-market has given it the nickname the Singapore Model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Singapore
Quote
Singapore has a non-modified universal healthcare system where the government ensures affordability of healthcare within the public health system, largely through a system of compulsory savings, subsidies and price controls. Singapore's system uses a combination of compulsory savings from payroll deductions to provide subsidies within a nationalized health insurance plan known as Medisave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Hong_Kong
Quote
Taxation in Hong Kong raises revenues from the sale and taxation of land [...] From its revenues, the government has built roads, schools, hospitals, and other public infrastructure facilities and services [...] All land in Hong Kong is owned by the government and leased to private users. By restricting the sale of land leases, the Hong Kong government keeps the price of land at what some would say are artificially high prices and this allows the government to support public spending with a low tax rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Hong_Kong
Quote
Hong Kong's medical infrastructure consists of a mixed medical economy, with 12 private hospitals and more than 50 public hospitals. [...] The Department of Health, under the Food and Health Bureau, is the health adviser of Hong Kong government and an executive arm in health legislation and policy. Its main role is to safeguard the health of the community through promotive, preventive, curative and rehabilitative services in Hong Kong. The main function of the department includes child assessment service, immunisation programmes, dental service, forensic pathology service, registration of healthcare professionals etc., though boards and councils (i.e. Medical Council of Hong Kong, Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong) are independent statutory bodies established under the relevant ordinances that operate independently to discharge their statutory functions.
Hospital Authority
The Hospital Authority is a statutory body established [...] to manage all 38 public hospitals and institutions in Hong Kong. It is mainly responsible for delivering a comprehensive range of secondary and tertiary specialist care and medical rehabilitation through its network of health care facilities. The Authority also provides some primary medical services in 74 primary care clinics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland
- Sounds EXACTLY like "Obamacare" btw
Quote
Healthcare in Switzerland is universal and is regulated by the Federal Health Insurance Act of 1994 (Krankenversicherungsgesetz - KVG). Health insurance is compulsory for all persons residing in Switzerland [...]Swiss are required to purchase basic health insurance, which covers a range of treatments detailed in the Federal Act. It is therefore the same throughout the country and avoids double standards in healthcare. Insurers are required to offer this basic insurance to everyone, regardless of age or medical condition. They are not allowed to make a profit off this basic insurance, but can on supplemental plans.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:43:00 pm by Reelya »
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Euld

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3370 on: October 01, 2012, 04:01:23 am »

"Pray the gay away" has been one of the larger worries of gay kids for quite some time. I am happy one state outlawed it. Ihope the won't just send the kid accross state lines or worse ...to the gutter.

Still it is something good.
I spent many years of my life trying to "pray the gay away."  Didn't work.  I'd imagine a lot of my Christian friends would say I "didn't try hard enough."  I"m quite happy being gay, happier than I was before.

kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3371 on: October 01, 2012, 05:02:39 am »

"Pray the gay away" has been one of the larger worries of gay kids for quite some time. I am happy one state outlawed it. Ihope the won't just send the kid accross state lines or worse ...to the gutter.

Still it is something good.
I spent many years of my life trying to "pray the gay away."  Didn't work.  I'd imagine a lot of my Christian friends would say I "didn't try hard enough."  I"m quite happy being gay, happier than I was before.
* kaijyuu hugs

Being in a similar experience before... I know how horrible that is.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

GreatJustice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3372 on: October 01, 2012, 02:08:46 pm »

Woo, Singapore, Hong Kong and Switzerland are the only "Libertarian" examples you have?

Socialized healthcare systems are only effective when you compare them to other socialized healthcare systems, or pseudo-corporatist systems like in the US. When you compare more socialized (Canada, Sweden, UK) with less socialized (Singapore, Hong Kong, Switzerland) you generally find the less socialized ones do a bit better.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, back to the actual argument:

-Singapore is more "controlled" than the US, but is significantly less regulated and has less indirect controls.

-Switzerland is basically the American model, again without the extra regulations (the AMA, the FDA, Medicare, etc) and with a mandate.

-Hong Kong's healthcare system has significant numbers of government run hospitals, but the system itself is generally private. For reference, around 90% of American hospitals are owned by the government, so Hong Kong is actually LESS controlled both directly and indirectly.

And, to go off topic,
Quote
All land in Hong Kong is owned by the government

Certainly. Land in Hong Kong also happens to be extortionately expensive, however, so it hardly constitutes an example of intervention working. It also happens to be the ONLY example of major interventionism you seem to find worth mentioning. Are you seriously going to say that government ownership of the land is progressive in the absence of welfare, a minimum wage, etc etc etc? Keep in mind, there ARE interventionist policies in Hong Kong (moreso ones implemented quite recently), but most are with regards to their monetary system.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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palsch

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3373 on: October 01, 2012, 02:18:04 pm »

I'm sorry but I was just skimming this argument and;
For reference, around 90% of American hospitals are owned by the government,
Erm, what?
Quote
   Total Number of All U.S. Registered Hospitals: 5,754
...
Number of State and Local Government Community Hospitals: 1,068
...
Number of Federal Government Hospitals: 213
Those are the major categories of public hospitals I can see in there. Including the ones that are probably public (Psychiatric Hospitals, Long Term Care and Hospital Units of Institutions) you still only get up to 1,837 public hospitals out of those 5,754. I make that 32%, not 90%.

Not really inspiring confidence in the rest of your unreferenced assertions here.
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Reelya

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3374 on: October 01, 2012, 03:14:38 pm »

@GreatJustice: I DID NOT present a strawman at all - i directly challenged your assertion that those countries were "less socialized". Underlining the very assertion i challenged and calling what i wrote a strawman is a non-sequiter.

Switzerland does in fact have a doctors association (like the AMA) and a regulatory body for pharmaceuticals (like the FDA). So unless you have some citations explaining that they work radically differently to the American versions, i'll assume they perform equivalent functions. The AMA is a private enterprise btw.

While Switzerland has mandated that citizens must purchase private health insurance, they also regulate what the plans must contain and force the insurers to run as non-profit organizations. While they have one of the lowest government spending on health, their total per capita spending on health is the third highest in the world. Considering that they're proud that a 25 year old pays the same as an 80 year old (by law), this implies it's not such a great system in terms of cost-effectiveness. Might as well just tax all the people equally, and have a single managed fund, like Singapore does.

Switzerland would only be the "American Model" if Obamacare is fully implemented, and then American health insurers were banned from making a profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Singapore
- In Singapore it is correct that the private health system is not heavily regulated, but like many countries, 70-80% of citizens are in the public health system. And the MediSave system demands workers put aside 6.5-9.0% of their income into a government-managed health fund. That's quite a large chunk of change, there, which explains why the public health system is so well-funded.

As for the situation in Hong Kong, my point about the land taxes was relevant to how "From its revenues, the government has built roads, schools, hospitals, and other public infrastructure facilities and services".
Quote from: GreatJustice
It also happens to be the ONLY example of major interventionism you seem to find worth mentioning.
I quoted two entire paragraphs detailing a complex set of health regulation authorities in Hong Kong, so that's just not true at all. For your benefit i'll reprint the whole thing. Considering that Hong Kong is only ONE CITY, that's quite an extensive bureaucracy for health care:
Quote
The Department of Health, under the Food and Health Bureau, is the health adviser of Hong Kong government and an executive arm in health legislation and policy. Its main role is to safeguard the health of the community through promotive, preventive, curative and rehabilitative services in Hong Kong. The main function of the department includes child assessment service, immunisation programmes, dental service, forensic pathology service, registration of healthcare professionals etc., though boards and councils (i.e. Medical Council of Hong Kong, Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong) are independent statutory bodies established under the relevant ordinances that operate independently to discharge their statutory functions.
Hospital Authority
The Hospital Authority is a statutory body established [...] to manage all 38 public hospitals and institutions in Hong Kong. It is mainly responsible for delivering a comprehensive range of secondary and tertiary specialist care and medical rehabilitation through its network of health care facilities. The Authority also provides some primary medical services in 74 primary care clinics.

===

It seems to me, you want to cherry-pick specific details from totally different health systems like Switzerland and Singapore, whilst ignoring other stuff going on there, and that strict government legislation exists in each country to make all that happen.

What about the health systems in Japan, Iceland and Australia - all 3 with universal health coverage, and all in the top 10 of life expectancy?

Or can you explain your criteria for effectiveness?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 03:32:42 pm by Reelya »
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