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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285702 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3300 on: September 28, 2012, 05:00:21 pm »

Bloop bloop wrong window
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palsch

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3301 on: September 28, 2012, 05:06:25 pm »

I really don't like Penn & Teller.  This is just one more case.  I understand what he's saying, but it's also pretty stupid if you think 10 more seconds into it.  Their show is also blatant political propaganda.  What really bothers me is they somehow manage to appeal to normally intelligent people who I would expect to be able to see through that kind of... bullshit.
I can't find the article (I think it was in the middle of the whole Atheism+ avalanche) but there was a fun quote about how that happens with 'sceptics'.

They find it easy to apply sceptical reasoning to, say, religion, alternative medicine and all kinds of ideas that are generally thought of as slightly kooky. They then consider themselves skeptics and to have already subjected any other beliefs they just happen to hold as justified. After all, they are skeptics, so if such beliefs were valid they wouldn't hold them, would they?

And that's ignoring the people who don't even bother with the reasoning part and just align their views with the common perception of skeptic beliefs so that they can feel the righteousness that comes with being better than all those deluded sheeple.

That's (mostly) when you get into the whole libertarian, sexist and racist strains within the skeptic/atheist/whatever community.
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GreatJustice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3302 on: September 28, 2012, 05:07:44 pm »

People who post things like that don't understand the concept of responsibility. You're getting "forced" to help people because it's your goddamn responsibility to help them, not because it's compassionate.

Responsibility? How?
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

SalmonGod

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3303 on: September 28, 2012, 05:13:18 pm »

Wow...

I'm pretty sure this guy just resigned his daughter to hell.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3304 on: September 28, 2012, 05:14:46 pm »

Wow...

I'm pretty sure this guy just resigned his daughter to hell.

I posted that recently in the WTF thread.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Levi

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3305 on: September 28, 2012, 05:16:48 pm »

Wow...

I'm pretty sure this guy just resigned his daughter to hell.

Or his daughter found a great way to scam her dad out of 65 mil.  :D
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3306 on: September 28, 2012, 05:19:49 pm »

People who post things like that don't understand the concept of responsibility. You're getting "forced" to help people because it's your goddamn responsibility to help them, not because it's compassionate.

Responsibility? How?
By virtue of being in a society you have a responsibility to others within it. You don't live in a vacuum where you don't have to care about anyone but yourself. I realize I'm circularly reasserting myself here, but I can't explain "why" any more than I can explain "why" you have to care about anyone in any situation.

Just take all those things you learned in preschool, like don't hit other people, share your toys, and play nice, and extrapolate. It's not toys we're sharing, even, but basic necessities.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 05:21:25 pm by kaijyuu »
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3307 on: September 28, 2012, 05:19:58 pm »

Someone shared this on Facebook.  Still not sure how the government "uses guns" to immorally steal money from the rich to give to the poor.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a particular brand of taking words and phrases of someone else. Namely it's a phrase straight out of Ayn Rand. If you read Atlas Shrugged, this is a recurring theme: figurative at first and then literal. It's also part of Galt's very long speech towards the end.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3308 on: September 28, 2012, 05:22:46 pm »

People who post things like that don't understand the concept of responsibility. You're getting "forced" to help people because it's your goddamn responsibility to help them, not because it's compassionate.
Responsibility? How?

Same way its your responsibility to pay taxes, same reason it's your responsibility to pay taxes for infrastructure development, same reason you can be called for the draft and the same reason you're supposed to vote.

We live in a society, a nation, and it is the responsibility of those who dwell within the nation to make it a good one, to do their part, so that through cooperation we can accomplish more than we would be able to as individuals. By living here, you agree to that. While the United States has always been big on liberty, and you can shirk many of those responsibilities without facing it's legal wrath, this does not make it any less of a responsibility for you to do your party.

It is through the action's of those who acted responsibly, acted in such a way to better this nation, that we've become as good as we are, and it is a lack of that responsibility that threatens us now.

I would think that a conservative would understand the notion of responsibility in respect to community and country. These are our neighbours, our extended family, our countrymen, and we do not leave them to suffer when we can do something to fix it.

And, like with the draft, if we can not manage success with voluntary adherence to that responsibility, we will use the force of law to insure those who attempt to shirk it also do their part.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 05:24:52 pm by GlyphGryph »
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3309 on: September 28, 2012, 05:25:33 pm »

I would think that a conservative would understand the notion of responsibility in respect to community and country...
Dude, even I can see this as ad hominem, and I agree with the rest of your post :P
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3310 on: September 28, 2012, 05:32:46 pm »

...what? How?
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3311 on: September 28, 2012, 05:46:01 pm »

"I would think you'd know X if you were Y" is a personal attack intended to discredit the opponent and not their argument, as it implies they're either not Y or a bad Y. No matter what Y is, or whether the person fits in that group, it's irrelevant to the points they're making.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3312 on: September 28, 2012, 05:51:50 pm »

Since ad hominem is by definition an attempt to discredit an argument, it can't be ad hominem, then. And I'm not sure I trust your declaration of a personal attack either - it was intended an appeal.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3313 on: September 28, 2012, 05:56:09 pm »

Since ad hominem is by definition an attempt to discredit an argument, it can't be ad hominem, then.
???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Quote
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it.

Ad hominem is a fallacy since it avoids the argument entirely. If it discredits an argument, it can only do so indirectly, through discrediting the person advocating it.

I'm guessing we're having a semantic mixup here?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3314 on: September 28, 2012, 05:59:37 pm »

It might be slightly, but it isn't beyond the pale to call into question contradictions.

Conservatives tout "support the troops." Yet, they often do not like taxes. The logic short circuit is that taxes support the troops with pay, equipment, VA benefits, everything.
Not paying taxes is, failing to support the troops and that would've been self evident in World War II. Just in case anybody doubts me.. If the tea party existed in 1941, they would've been tarred and feathered. After all "taxes kill the axis." Now, that's a more palatable version. More people will agree on "support the troops" than "support everybody." This is somewhat tragic given that many homeless people actually are veterans, and they tell you that right after your release, but whatever.

As for everybody else, it's a question of responsibility to make the world a better place v. taking whatever you can for yourself and screwing over everybody else.

Look, these however many millions of Americans who are unemployed are not lazy, or worthless or whatever. A couple years ago, they were employed and paying taxes. What the hell happened? They're the same people they were and they can be just as productive now. Through something they don't want and that isn't their fault, they are currently unemployed. The notion that people who don't have a job in this terrible economy are "lazy" is laughable at best and contemptible really, because it's saying that millions upon millions of people are so worthless and lazy that they would actually let themselves and their entire family rot in poverty.

I am openly and notoriously cynical as hell and even I don't think that all the unemployed people are so lazy as to let themselves and their loved ones die on purpose. "Personal Responsibility? " Romney thinks these people don't take "personal responsibility?" Who are the people getting foreclosed upon and losing their homes? Who are the people who have to do without? Who are the people who have to pay the brunt of this catastrophe we call our current economy while rich bankers somehow get bonuses? Personal responsibility? They're swimming in it, actually they're drowning in it. This coming from a man whose parents paid for his college and really his entire life. Personal responsibility? No wonder Romney misuses those words, he's never had any....

And all these people, who are drowning in that personal responsibility Romney says they don't have, can't fail. If anything is too big to fail, it's the 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 people in poverty (depending upon what survey you believe) in the US. How many millions of people is that? How can you continue to have a society when that many people are being left behind? You can't. The society we can't have if millions of people are left behind, is what made the rich people rich. They didn't get wealthy on a desert isle; people bought whatever they sold... the same people who many of them are now advocating don't matter.... need a lil help at the moment.

Even from a completely dispassionate, logical stance, all these rich people and companies, need a healthy middle class consumer base, or else there won't be any customers to buy all the stuff they sell..... It's in their best interest to keep what they rudely consider the "herd" healthy.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 06:02:14 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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