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[Darvi]

I don't know how else to argue against that point, Red. That kind of thinking, it just... Throws me off.

I know. That's why I'm not continuing this argument. It's like arguing apples and walruses.

Walrusses are better than apples hands down!

They both don't compare to cubism, though.

[kaijyuu]

I'm going to pop in and point out I'm impressed by people respecting different axioms when it comes to stuff like this. High fives.

[Glowcat]

I could easily replace the word "Medicine" with "God", and it would fit perfectly into the mouth of a Pentecostal fundamentalist. Claiming that your way is the only correct way and all others are inherently invalid *is* fundamentalism, whether you like it or not. Replace "scientifically testable" with "in the Bible", and you even have the same discriminator as to what's acceptable and not acceptable.

Oh the poor oppressed Woo Medicine. How ever will it be free if its practitioners can't charge for phony treatments? Well, besides literally in the economic sense of 'free' or at least priced without fraudulent claims of its effects so that customers can make informed decisions.

Suddenly, Storm has become even more appropriate to the conversation. Kinda disappointed to be honest... as usually I respect your opinions. The whole perception that everything is just opinion and none of those can be wrong is a poison on public discourse. That sort of thinking is the tool of those too stubborn to admit they can't back their ideas, but it becomes outright foul when it results in tangible harm done under false beliefs.

[Nadaka]

Science in the practice of medicine is something that really should be fundamental. It is a matter of life and death and the scientific method really does establish a fundamentally better system for determining if a treatment will be effective, ineffective or even harmful.

Superstition and magic had no place in there. It doesn't matter if it is toism, dancing with rattlesnakes, voodoo dolls, animal sacrifice or praying to some god, water memory or the philosophies of the ancient greeks.

If you want Chinese traditional medicine to be held in equal value to modern medicine, put it to the test. Some of it may hold up to scrutiny and be incorporated into modern medicine, most of it probably won't.

[Descan]

Oh, I don't respect it. Oh sure, I respect it exists. And I respect that people, like Big  here, hold to it. And I respect that it'd be as close to impossible to convince him or anyone else who holds it that they're wrong as it would be to convince me that science as an axiom is wrong. But if I respected it as an axiom, I would hold it myself. Since I don't hold it, I can't say I respect it.

[kaijyuu]

@glowcat
RedKing's argument in that particular quote has to do with rhetoric. He's claiming the argument is bad, not necessarily what it's supporting. (he's got some other arguments too which I won't go into, but those aren't in the portion you quoted)

But if I respected it as an axiom, I would hold it myself. Since I don't hold it, I can't say I respect it.

This is a bit silly. Why can't you say you respect it without holding it? Axioms are, by definition, assumptions we make that have no support. You can respect them the same way you respect any sort of difference of opinion.

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't. (such a difference of opinion is obviously of far lesser magnitude, but the logic is the same)

[Darvi]

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't.

I thought that was the cultural standard?

[kaijyuu]

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't.

I thought that was the cultural standard?

We've got a lot of stupid cultural standards

[Darvi]

Agreed.

[Glowcat]

@glowcat
RedKing's argument in that particular quote has to do with rhetoric. He's claiming the argument is bad, not necessarily what it's supporting. (he's got some other arguments too which I won't go into, but those aren't in the portion you quoted)

That's not the impression I got, especially when combined with his own rhetoric which is aptly called a cliche for how often I see it used (yet never adequately defended when challenged). I'll give his posts a reread later but for now I've got to get back to studying.

[GlyphGryph]

Axioms disgust me. Always crawling in your shoes at night, leaving their slime trails everywhere. Fucking disgusting.

So, yeah, new topics maybe? He said he didn't want to talk about it, and everyone else is agreeing, so this piling on is a bit much.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

When I see a comment like

There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit.

I could easily replace the word "Medicine" with "God", and it would fit perfectly into the mouth of a Pentecostal fundamentalist. Claiming that your way is the only correct way and all others are inherently invalid *is* fundamentalism, whether you like it or not. Replace "scientifically testable" with "in the Bible", and you even have the same discriminator as to what's acceptable and not acceptable.

Science is nothing like religion. Science depends upon results, religions depend upon dogma. If you can't see the difference there we aren't going anywhere. That you can switch words around to make my statement wrong by jumping into entirely different concepts doesn't refute anything.

But the general attitude of "There Is But One Law And It Is SCIENCE" gets old after a while. Some times I think we have a few too many atheists around here. 

If you're disregarding science for something that you yourself admit is inherently unscientific, in the world of medicine no less, then it looks to me like we don't have nearly enough.

[10ebbor10]

MSH is, by his own definitions, always right.

His statement is: "There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit. "
And these are the definitions that he uses:
The One true medicin: All treatments, even those incorporated in traditional stuff, that work
All other options: Those that don't work.

This statement can therefore not be wrong, but is also completely meaningless.

[GlyphGryph]

Science is nothing like religion. Science depends upon results, religions depend upon dogma. If you can't see the difference there we aren't going anywhere. That you can switch words around to make my statement wrong by jumping into entirely different concepts doesn't refute anything

But the general attitude of "There Is But One Law And It Is SCIENCE" gets old after a while. Some times I think we have a few too many atheists around here. 

If you're disregarding science for something that you yourself admit is inherently unscientific, in the world of medicine no less, then it looks to me like we don't have nearly enough.

"There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit." is not a scientific statement. I /thought/ it was tongue in cheek, but by your response here, maybe I was wrong. There is no One True anything in science, because science recognizes that odds, context, and limited information pretty much preclude that from ever being possible. Like Democracy, it is not perfect, it is simply the best we have (and there are ways to do it poorly and ways to improve your methodology).

Medicine isn't even science. It has science in it, sure. But there's a lot more to it than that, as we're all well aware.

You're both sounding stubbornly dogmatic, here. As long as he doesn't go around insisting to other people that it will help them, lying to them about likely effects, or trying to spend the countries money on it, I've got no problem with him. People do a lot of things for a lot of very unscientific reasons. Big woop. I just want laws against this stuff being fraudulently advertised.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

"There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit." is not a scientific statement. I /thought/ it was tongue in cheek, but by your response here, maybe I was wrong.

Of course it was tongue in cheek!

I swear, I can't say anything without getting critically misunderstood. The context of the original statement was me sarcastically replying to kaijyuu who accused me of legitimately stating that there was "One True Medicine". My understanding was that we were all aware that I was doing so in confirmation of supporting only medicine that produces evidential results as being real medicine, not actually stating that there is One True Medicine.

And alternative medicine is still bullshit.