Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 216 217 [218] 219 220 ... 759

Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285729 times)

Darvi

  • Bay Watcher
  • <Cript> Darvi is my wifi.
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3255 on: September 26, 2012, 01:58:28 pm »

I don't know how else to argue against that point, Red. That kind of thinking, it just... Throws me off.
I know. That's why I'm not continuing this argument. It's like arguing apples and walruses.
Walrusses are better than apples hands down!

They both don't compare to cubism, though.
Logged

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3256 on: September 26, 2012, 02:09:04 pm »

I'm going to pop in and point out I'm impressed by people respecting different axioms when it comes to stuff like this. High fives. :)
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Glowcat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3257 on: September 26, 2012, 02:32:14 pm »

I could easily replace the word "Medicine" with "God", and it would fit perfectly into the mouth of a Pentecostal fundamentalist. Claiming that your way is the only correct way and all others are inherently invalid *is* fundamentalism, whether you like it or not. Replace "scientifically testable" with "in the Bible", and you even have the same discriminator as to what's acceptable and not acceptable.

Oh the poor oppressed Woo Medicine. How ever will it be free if its practitioners can't charge for phony treatments? Well, besides literally in the economic sense of 'free' or at least priced without fraudulent claims of its effects so that customers can make informed decisions.

Suddenly, Storm has become even more appropriate to the conversation. Kinda disappointed to be honest... as usually I respect your opinions. The whole perception that everything is just opinion and none of those can be wrong is a poison on public discourse. That sort of thinking is the tool of those too stubborn to admit they can't back their ideas, but it becomes outright foul when it results in tangible harm done under false beliefs.
Logged
Totally a weretrain. Very much trains!
I'm going to steamroll this house.

Nadaka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nadaka.us
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3258 on: September 26, 2012, 02:34:50 pm »

Science in the practice of medicine is something that really should be fundamental. It is a matter of life and death and the scientific method really does establish a fundamentally better system for determining if a treatment will be effective, ineffective or even harmful.

Superstition and magic had no place in there. It doesn't matter if it is toism, dancing with rattlesnakes, voodoo dolls, animal sacrifice or praying to some god, water memory or the philosophies of the ancient greeks.

If you want Chinese traditional medicine to be held in equal value to modern medicine, put it to the test. Some of it may hold up to scrutiny and be incorporated into modern medicine, most of it probably won't.
Logged
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3259 on: September 26, 2012, 02:36:40 pm »

Oh, I don't respect it. Oh sure, I respect it exists. And I respect that people, like Big  here, hold to it. And I respect that it'd be as close to impossible to convince him or anyone else who holds it that they're wrong as it would be to convince me that science as an axiom is wrong. But if I respected it as an axiom, I would hold it myself. Since I don't hold it, I can't say I respect it.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3260 on: September 26, 2012, 02:39:03 pm »

@glowcat
RedKing's argument in that particular quote has to do with rhetoric. He's claiming the argument is bad, not necessarily what it's supporting. (he's got some other arguments too which I won't go into, but those aren't in the portion you quoted)

But if I respected it as an axiom, I would hold it myself. Since I don't hold it, I can't say I respect it.
This is a bit silly. Why can't you say you respect it without holding it? Axioms are, by definition, assumptions we make that have no support. You can respect them the same way you respect any sort of difference of opinion.

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't. (such a difference of opinion is obviously of far lesser magnitude, but the logic is the same)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:41:19 pm by kaijyuu »
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Darvi

  • Bay Watcher
  • <Cript> Darvi is my wifi.
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3261 on: September 26, 2012, 02:42:14 pm »

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't.
I thought that was the cultural standard?
Logged

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3262 on: September 26, 2012, 02:43:06 pm »

It's like saying you can't respect someone liking a movie that you don't.
I thought that was the cultural standard?
We've got a lot of stupid cultural standards :P
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Darvi

  • Bay Watcher
  • <Cript> Darvi is my wifi.
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3263 on: September 26, 2012, 02:43:52 pm »

Agreed.
Logged

Glowcat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3264 on: September 26, 2012, 02:45:15 pm »

@glowcat
RedKing's argument in that particular quote has to do with rhetoric. He's claiming the argument is bad, not necessarily what it's supporting. (he's got some other arguments too which I won't go into, but those aren't in the portion you quoted)

That's not the impression I got, especially when combined with his own rhetoric which is aptly called a cliche for how often I see it used (yet never adequately defended when challenged). I'll give his posts a reread later but for now I've got to get back to studying.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 06:07:53 pm by Glowcat »
Logged
Totally a weretrain. Very much trains!
I'm going to steamroll this house.

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3265 on: September 26, 2012, 02:47:55 pm »

Axioms disgust me. Always crawling in your shoes at night, leaving their slime trails everywhere. Fucking disgusting.

So, yeah, new topics maybe? He said he didn't want to talk about it, and everyone else is agreeing, so this piling on is a bit much.
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3266 on: September 26, 2012, 03:06:20 pm »

When I see a comment like

There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit.

I could easily replace the word "Medicine" with "God", and it would fit perfectly into the mouth of a Pentecostal fundamentalist. Claiming that your way is the only correct way and all others are inherently invalid *is* fundamentalism, whether you like it or not. Replace "scientifically testable" with "in the Bible", and you even have the same discriminator as to what's acceptable and not acceptable.
Science is nothing like religion. Science depends upon results, religions depend upon dogma. If you can't see the difference there we aren't going anywhere. That you can switch words around to make my statement wrong by jumping into entirely different concepts doesn't refute anything.
Quote
But the general attitude of "There Is But One Law And It Is SCIENCE" gets old after a while. Some times I think we have a few too many atheists around here.  ::)
If you're disregarding science for something that you yourself admit is inherently unscientific, in the world of medicine no less, then it looks to me like we don't have nearly enough.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3267 on: September 26, 2012, 03:18:14 pm »

MSH is, by his own definitions, always right.

His statement is: "There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit. "
And these are the definitions that he uses:
The One true medicin: All treatments, even those incorporated in traditional stuff, that work
All other options: Those that don't work.

This statement can therefore not be wrong, but is also completely meaningless.
Logged

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3268 on: September 26, 2012, 03:19:29 pm »

Science is nothing like religion. Science depends upon results, religions depend upon dogma. If you can't see the difference there we aren't going anywhere. That you can switch words around to make my statement wrong by jumping into entirely different concepts doesn't refute anything
Quote
But the general attitude of "There Is But One Law And It Is SCIENCE" gets old after a while. Some times I think we have a few too many atheists around here.  ::)
If you're disregarding science for something that you yourself admit is inherently unscientific, in the world of medicine no less, then it looks to me like we don't have nearly enough.

"There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit." is not a scientific statement. I /thought/ it was tongue in cheek, but by your response here, maybe I was wrong. There is no One True anything in science, because science recognizes that odds, context, and limited information pretty much preclude that from ever being possible. Like Democracy, it is not perfect, it is simply the best we have (and there are ways to do it poorly and ways to improve your methodology).

Medicine isn't even science. It has science in it, sure. But there's a lot more to it than that, as we're all well aware.

You're both sounding stubbornly dogmatic, here. As long as he doesn't go around insisting to other people that it will help them, lying to them about likely effects, or trying to spend the countries money on it, I've got no problem with him. People do a lot of things for a lot of very unscientific reasons. Big woop. I just want laws against this stuff being fraudulently advertised.
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #3269 on: September 26, 2012, 03:24:20 pm »

"There is One True Medicine and all other options are inherently bullshit." is not a scientific statement. I /thought/ it was tongue in cheek, but by your response here, maybe I was wrong.
Of course it was tongue in cheek!

I swear, I can't say anything without getting critically misunderstood. The context of the original statement was me sarcastically replying to kaijyuu who accused me of legitimately stating that there was "One True Medicine". My understanding was that we were all aware that I was doing so in confirmation of supporting only medicine that produces evidential results as being real medicine, not actually stating that there is One True Medicine.

And alternative medicine is still bullshit.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
Pages: 1 ... 216 217 [218] 219 220 ... 759