Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[penguinofhonor]

Oh hey here's a more recent article. It pretty much backs up what you said, though. Nobody likes the law but it might take a while for them to get around to it.

[Euld]

Wait, wait, we found the gay gene already?  Why was I not informed of this?!

[Karlito]

It's not conclusive, by any means.

[Reelya]

"Gay gene" is a red herring, ands stems from a black-and-white naive worldview where everything is either directly "genetic" or a social construct. in-utero hormonal environment is a much better candidate for differences between individuals, from the below link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

(note this accounts for only 15% of variation so it's not the only factor)

The fraternal birth order effect is the strongest known biodemographic predictor of sexual orientation. According to several studies, each older brother increases a man's odds of having a homosexual orientation by 28–48%.[...]The fraternal birth order effect has also been observed among male-to-female transsexuals: MtF transsexuals who are sexually interested in men have a greater number of older brothers than MtF transsexuals who are sexually interested in women.[...]Anthony Bogaert's work involving adoptees concludes that the effect is not due to being raised with older brothers, but is hypothesized to have something to do with changes induced in the mother's body when gestating a boy that affects subsequent sons.[...]The fraternal birth order effect appears to interact with handedness, as the incidence of homosexuality correlated with an increase in older brothers is seen only in right-handed males.[...]Bogaert (2006) replicated the fraternal birth order effect on male sexual orientation, in a sample including both biological siblings and adopted siblings.Only the older biological brothers influenced sexual orientation; there was no effect of adopted siblings. Bogaert concluded that his finding strongly suggest a prenatal origin to the fraternal birth-order effect.

See, not every biological effect needs to have a "gene" unlike what the science-illiterate mass media seems to think.

[Darvi]

*insert picture of Psycho Mantis angrily doing a spit take*

[kaijyuu]

I don't get why people are so caught up with the "cause" of being gay.

If it's genetic, okay, whatever.
If it's social, okay, whatever.
If it's both, okay, whatever.

The cause is entirely irrelevant. Pray tell, if it IS a choice, how in the world would that possibly give any justification to homophobia? Choosing to belong to a group and having the ability to leave it does not justify hate against you.


I see no value in the knowledge of its cause other than idle curiosity.

[Euld]

I see plenty of value in the knowledge of the cause.  I am gay, so I'd like to know how or why I ended up gay.  Maybe most people don't understand this, but I value the knowledge of knowing where I came from.  I'm related to William Bradford from the Mayflower, my family may have moved to the Washington territories a long time ago to escape the law, and apparently my family owned a brothel in Olympia only a handful of generations back.  I'm also Irish, Scottish, and English, and I have ravenous cravings for potatoes.  And then I'm gay.  I simply want to know for knowledge's sake.

[kaijyuu]

Well then that counts as "idle curiosity." Don't get me wrong, that's a plenty good reason to want to know something

[Nadaka]

Knowing the cause determines the nature of the final solution.

If genetic? only extermination will purge homosexuality. A moral exception to the anti-abortion stance will be created for cases where the fetus tests positive for inherent damnation.

If hormonal? Expect to see prenatal treatments to ensure heterosexuality in offspring.

If choice? you can just beat it out of them.

I think I need to move somewhere where saying this out loud in public wouldn't be met with nods of approval.

[Truean]

Knowing the cause determines the nature of the final solution.

If genetic? only extermination will purge homosexuality. A moral exception to the anti-abortion stance will be created for cases where the fetus tests positive for inherent damnation.

If hormonal? Expect to see prenatal treatments to ensure heterosexuality in offspring.

If choice? you can just beat it out of them.

I think I need to move somewhere where saying this out loud in public wouldn't be met with nods of approval.

The simplest, and thus hardest for those who oppose gays, option is acceptance regardless of cause.

I wonder, in cultures that have accepted gays, where do gays fit in with their family and the families of other people as friends? Personally, I'm having a hell of a time with this one. Lots of things my friends end up doing are mostly for married couples.... I can't really get married and don't have a partner so.... Also kids and parenting and talking about it, yeah, that's a major thing for ... other people but not me.... Can occasionally get awkward, though more often "inapplicable." Talking about your spouses... yeah I ... know ... all about that.... Except I don't, at all. [loud crickets some bastard gave megaphones to...].

I bet when people see all those megaphones just laying outside on the lawn, they're gonna wonder what's going on until they see the little crickets using them.

[Sheb]

Well, Belgium is quite gay-friendly (We got a gay as head of government, and no-one care), and we got several gays in my family's friends. They just either discuss their partners, or, if they don't have it, they do like heterosexual bachelors and just speak about something else.

I guess it's only awkward because you're not used to gay just fitting in as normal people, but those issue just seems to sort themselves.

[kaijyuu]

It all depends on the people you surround yourself with, I suppose. People can change too with enough/the right kind of exposure, though you might be too cynical to believe that

[Truean]

Yeah, I guess so, it's just that even my close girlfriends were kinda .... Like it wasn't that they were mean or anything, but they didn't know how to explain what gay or trans was to their little kids and stuff so.... It was kinda understood that while we could totally have fun hanging out, that was only after the kid went to bed or wasn't there. These are people who haven't told their kids about sex in general, at all, so try explaining homosexuality to them.... At least that was my take-away from it, kinda? Same deal with their parents, because especially the older ones were NOT cool with it.

Sheb's probably right and so is Kaijyuu, in that my mind would be blown by the notion of being completely accepted as just a "normal person," with people who know how I really am. I have one girlfriend whose mother is completely understanding and accepting of me, and quite frankly I wanted to cry when I figured out she wasn't joking or otherwise wasn't faking it to be nice, because I didn't know how to deal with the sincerity. That and quite frankly I've had parents try to forbid their adult daughters from hanging out with me on account of "teh gay," so that was the exact opposite of what I'm used to.

The notion that Sheb's government is headed by a gay person is also mind blowing for an American. I can't fathom a gay person being president in this country, and my mind just can't make it compute. I honestly think an ex con would have a better chance at being the President of the US than a gay guy, assuming the ex convict could run for office. 

[shrugs] I dunno what to make of that and how much of it is legitimately based on society being composed significantly enough of people who don't like gays in this country, v. illegitimately based upon my massive psychological hangups that would leave Freud clawing at the walls to escape.

[Descan]

I think Iceland is, or was, run by a lesbian.

Also, that whole "How would I explain it to my kids?" thing always kind of infuriated me. You know, because of the whole "Because you don't want to talk to your punk for 5 minutes, I can't marry the person I love?" Or whatever they're exclaiming that in response to.

[Truean]

I think Iceland is, or was, run by a lesbian.

Also, that whole "How would I explain it to my kids?" thing always kind of infuriated me. You know, because of the whole "Because you don't want to talk to your punk for 5 minutes, I can't marry the person I love?" Or whatever they're exclaiming that in response to.

O, I"m with you on this one, but it's not necessarily entirely 100% nuts on the other side. It gets blown wayyyyy the hell out of proportion but yeah. We need to figure out healthy ways to pass on life skills and common knowledge to kids in a safe environment, as opposed to what my parents did, which was tell me absolutely nothing about pretty much anything. I think the Unitarian Universalists are pretty good about giving their kids sex ed very very early, and they manage to end up fine. Note: I am not a UU.... It does seem that most of the other people I meet are so horridly screwed up themselves that they can't even adequately take care of their kids without screwing up and causing a therapist's vacation home, much less actually talk to their kids reasonably.

I dunno what the answer is.