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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286227 times)

kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1680 on: May 30, 2012, 06:50:14 pm »

Let's not get our panties in a bunch, all. The thread is for fun, harmless debate. We're not here to prove each other wrong, or come to some universal truth, but refine our opinions. You've got a better chance of actually changing something in the world by writing your opinions on the sidewalk in chalk than by posting here.

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Compliance is what allows these things to happen. If more people fought back against criminals crime would be less likely.
Tough on crime, eh? I disagree, for two reasons.

1) Safety. Your wallet isn't worth a knife in the gut.
2) Eliminating their reason to commit a crime is more effective in stopping the practice on a large scale.


Pretty much all theft is motivated by desperation (though the degree if sympathy you have for their desperation, like say a drug addict's desperation to get their fix, might vary). Taking people's stuff has a huge deterrent attached, from both the risk involved, and the fact most people aren't heartless sociopaths. So, giving them reasonable recourse to get what they need will mean theft is a bigger hassle than getting it the "normal" way.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1681 on: May 30, 2012, 07:52:08 pm »

1) Safety. Your wallet isn't worth a knife in the gut.
It's not about the worth of the money, it's the principle of your actions. Muggers aren't of the mindset to be deterred by "Take whatever you want, don't kill me!". That's just confirming your own weakness and exploitablity to them. It's true, they want your money, not your life. They certainly don't want to risk their own necks either. What acts as a deterrent to someone of that mindset is leading them to believe that targeting you, or continuing to target you, will not only have a lesser chance of actually obtaining your money but a higher chance of sustaining harm themselves in the process. Poisonous butterflies are bright yellow and orange to tell birds that they'll face harm if they consume them, walking around with a pistol on your belt tells muggers that they'll face harm if they try to mug you. But that's just posturing. If you choose not to be a victim, if someone does decide to push, you have to push back.
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2) Eliminating their reason to commit a crime is more effective in stopping the practice on a large scale.
Agreed, but we aren't talking about the large scale.
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Pretty much all theft is motivated by desperation.
Some theft is motivated by desperation. Other thefts are motivated by greed, and some are motivated by the influence of criminal culture.
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Taking people's stuff has a huge deterrent attached, from both the risk involved, and the fact most people aren't heartless sociopaths.
Sidenote: Sociopathy is no longer a term used by the psychological community. What was previously called Sociopathy has been reorganized into Antisocial Personality Disorder. Also, in this discussion, psychopath would be a more accurate phrase for what we are referencing.

Psychologically, thieves justify their actions along two broad pathways. Psychopaths are naturally unconcerned with others and see their actions as self-justified. From their view, if someone else has something the psychopath desires, they are morally wrong for keeping it from the psychopath and the psychopath is morally right for claiming what they want. These individuals are particularly dangerous, even if they are not committing crimes.

The psychologically "healthy", on the other hand, justify their actions through depersonalization and rationalization. They do everything in their power to see their victims as not being people like they themselves are, and rationalize through the possible need they have for another's possessions.

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So, giving them reasonable recourse to get what they need will mean theft is a bigger hassle than getting it the "normal" way.
This is true on a societal level, but not on a personal one. The former will decrease crime because it gives the desperate thieves an out, the latter will increase it because it tells them all that people won't stand up to them.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Bauglir

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1682 on: May 30, 2012, 11:46:04 pm »

I think the problem is that when desperation is a large enough factor, deterrents are no longer relevant.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1683 on: May 31, 2012, 12:44:57 am »

But for a great many thieves (I'd argue most), "desperation" isn't quite the state they've reached when they start committing crimes. In fact, for most of the criminals I've known, simple expedience seems to be the governing rule - if they can improve their situation without getting caught or facing repercussions, even if it harms someone else, they'll do it. Sure, they'll usually be caps on how much harm they are willing to do and how much risk they are willing to take as things get closer and closer to desperation, but I think the quite wealthy white collar criminals indicate pretty clearly that desperation isn't the overriding factor, here.

To be honest, none of the people I've known to be legitimately desperate (the homeless, the destitute, the durggies) have turned to crime beyond shoplifting or snatching unattended objects (to my knowledge), while a few of the better off ones have engaged in quite a bit of it (that I know of). That is... probably not something I should go into detail about, though.

Perhaps the non-desperate criminals are simply more likely to brag about it. (See: people who post their loot on facebook)
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lemon10

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1684 on: May 31, 2012, 12:48:58 am »

Deterrents are always relevant.
Odds are no matter how hungry you are you aren't going to try to break into a secure military facility (one that if you are caught that they will kill you) to get food.

Now, if that is the only place to get food, and you are starving to death then you might, but even then you weigh the deterrents (even if you choose to ignore them).
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Sheb

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1685 on: May 31, 2012, 07:00:01 am »

Well, detterence got limits. That's why the death penalty doesn't really work as a way to bring crime rate down.
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1686 on: May 31, 2012, 07:11:27 am »

Yeah, the thing I don't understand about the strawman is that seriously, don't people realize it only makes the target of your criticism look better?
It's more like I feel in this case what's being supported is worse than the strawman.  At least in the case of blinding an acid attacker it's "an eye for an eye" - while horrible, one could argue the punishment fits the crime.  This is not the case when it comes to killing someone who is running away from a failed robbery.
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RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1687 on: May 31, 2012, 08:13:34 am »

(See: people who post their loot on facebook)
You would be shocked how often this occurs. ATF loves it when some idiot "thug life 4 evar" type posts pictures of himself posing with his TEC-9. Makes the takedown and conviction so much easier. Especially good when he includes and tags all his bros in the picture.


1) Safety. Your wallet isn't worth a knife in the gut.
This is the principle behind ALL coercive behavior. Your lunch money isn't worth getting beat up over. Speaking out against the regime isn't worth being being "disappeared" by the secret police. Committing a robbery isn't worth going to prison.
 
And yet, these coercions can and do fail to dissuade. Some kids eventually stand up to the bully. Some dissidents eventually speak out. Some people commit robberies. And some mugging/robbery victims do fight back.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 08:22:09 am by RedKing »
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Blargityblarg

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1688 on: May 31, 2012, 08:30:17 am »

And yet, these coercions can and do fail to dissuade. Some kids eventually stand up to the bully. Some dissidents eventually speak out. Some people commit robberies. And some mugging/robbery victims do fight back.

And some let the system fight back for them, instead of needlessly complicating things and making it that much more likely for someone to be injured or killed.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1689 on: May 31, 2012, 08:38:41 am »

Will fighting back in any way shape or form fix the problem? You punch some guy's teeth out and he gets taken away by the police. Success that you kept your wallet and one thug goes to jail. Thousands others still exist, thousands more will be created by circumstance, thousands more who do it for kicks/utter stupidity aren't dissuaded.
That's of course best case scenario. Worst is you lose your wallet, die, and get martyred for a cause society at large agrees with anyway: stealing is bad.


Fighting back against individuals who try to steal from you is not some grand respectable cause. Not unless you're a Viking or have some similar whacked out concept of personal honor. Fighting back is stupid. You won't make a statement, you risk your life over a few dollars, and you do pretty much squat to solve the real problem. Still worth it?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1690 on: May 31, 2012, 08:55:51 am »

It'd be crazy to fight against overwhelming odds. But should the guy trip or something and the odds tilt in my favor? I'd kick the living shit out of the bastard. Improves odds of running away afterwards.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 08:57:26 am by ChairmanPoo »
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1691 on: May 31, 2012, 08:57:10 am »

And if he tries to run away you shoot him!  I get it now.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1692 on: May 31, 2012, 08:59:02 am »

 I specifically said in prior posts in this thread that I was against that. Thus I don't know if you're being obtuse or delliberatedly misleading.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 09:01:34 am by ChairmanPoo »
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1693 on: May 31, 2012, 09:00:54 am »

Didn't intend for it to be directed at you so much as the thread at large, since we have had other people advocating shooting fleeing intruders.  Sorry.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1694 on: May 31, 2012, 09:02:54 am »

K, sorry. This thread is getting rather hot :/

(Plus I admit I have emotional factors in this matter. Getting beaten up badly enough to spend the rest of the night in the ER AFTER you handed your 1800€ watch without resistance to your muggers tends to eschew your view of things)
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