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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286091 times)

Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1140 on: April 24, 2012, 09:00:07 am »

Welcome to the corporatocracy.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jailed-for--280--the-return-of-debtors--prisons.html

Woman got charged $280 as a medical bill and when contacting the company they said it was in error and she didn't have to pay it. She is serving time in jail as a result.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/florida-man-charged-felony-allegedly-stealing-1-cup-002830215--abc-news-topstories.html

Man asks for a courtesy cup for water, fills it with soda at the fountain instead and is arrested for felony theft.
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cameron

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1141 on: April 24, 2012, 02:31:36 pm »

The second one doesn't seem particularly  corporatocracy-y, it says they charged him with petty theft, trespassing and disorderly intoxication all of which are fairly reasonable with the story given and that it was only when they found he had previous theft convictions was it upgraded. If anything it would be an issue with the general legal system surrounding that sort of upgrading of charge
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Twi

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1142 on: April 24, 2012, 02:34:17 pm »


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jailed-for--280--the-return-of-debtors--prisons.html
... This is terrible, but I can't actually tell who's getting her jailed. Mostly because I can't see anyone profiting from it. Not the people who gave her the incorrect bill and apparently figured it out already, certainly- they could have just not corrected themselves earlier. So, am I reading it wrong or what?

Quote
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/florida-man-charged-felony-allegedly-stealing-1-cup-002830215--abc-news-topstories.html

Man asks for a courtesy cup for water, fills it with soda at the fountain instead and is arrested for felony theft.

'Petty theft is usually a misdemeanor, but because Abaire has previous convictions for theft, the charge was upgraded to a felony.'
I don't really see how this relates to corporations being badness, though one might say it's bad in and of itself. Basically what cameron said.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1143 on: April 24, 2012, 02:47:37 pm »

25 Years to life imprisonment for a man who stole golf clubs upheld by SCOTUS

That's right 25 to life for stealing 3 golf clubs, just because he had two previous offenses. "Tough on crime," is a bullshit political slogan.

People don't seem to get this sentencing thing in the slightest, so here's how it works. The popular conception is that rehabilitation doesn't work. Whether or not this is true, vengeance also doesn't work. People have been committing horrible crimes since the dawn of human civilization and they've been getting punished since then too. Some of these have been completely horrible up to and including torture and execution, both in public many times. "Tough sentences" haven't worked, ever to "deter" crime and they never will. Throughout the thousands of years of human history we've been heavily punishing people for everything from murder to theft and yet they still do it. What on earth makes people think that if we throw more on now crime will suddenly go down.... The answer is arrogance and the delusion that they are in control of everything. They aren't and they can't deal with that simple fact.  So, to feel safe and powerful, they slap on extra sanctions rather than bother trying to figure out how to fix the problems they'd prefer not to....

Distract the masses from the real issues and give them blood, gallons of the stuff....


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jailed-for--280--the-return-of-debtors--prisons.html
... This is terrible, but I can't actually tell who's getting her jailed. Mostly because I can't see anyone profiting from it. Not the people who gave her the incorrect bill and apparently figured it out already, certainly- they could have just not corrected themselves earlier. So, am I reading it wrong or what?

One way it happens:
The attorneys for the debt collection firms have her arrested. See, what happens is, the person gets sued, loses, sometimes by default (not showing up for whatever reason) and then it comes time to collect on that judgment. For that you garnish, but where do you garnish, bank accounts, wages? other? Well how do you figure that out? Answer: Debtor's exam, you haul them into court and they are forced to tell you where they have things you can take. If they don't show up or are evasive, then they get a warrant out for their arrest, meaning if they so much as get pulled over, the officer will arrest them and toss them in jail. That's one way at least. There may be others but I've never used them.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/florida-man-charged-felony-allegedly-stealing-1-cup-002830215--abc-news-topstories.html

Man asks for a courtesy cup for water, fills it with soda at the fountain instead and is arrested for felony theft.

'Petty theft is usually a misdemeanor, but because Abaire has previous convictions for theft, the charge was upgraded to a felony.'
I don't really see how this relates to corporations being badness, though one might say it's bad in and of itself. Basically what cameron said.

(See above :) )


I have no idea what the hell happened to those tags.... Ordinarily I'm pretty good about those too. :P Fixed. One of the quote boxes was missing a "/"
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 04:16:46 pm by Truean »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1144 on: April 24, 2012, 03:02:13 pm »

Most people I know who support crazy laws like that aren't looking for rehabilitation OR vengeance.

They are looking to make crime less likely to happen to them through the simple method of removing from society those most likely to commit crimes. The criminal and how he's treated doesn't really enter into the logic of the situation at all.

They aren't dicks, so they don't want to outright kill them, but they might be willing to, say, ship them off to Australia or some nonsense like that, so long as they aren't /here/, bothering /us/, you know?
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kaenneth

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1145 on: April 24, 2012, 03:13:03 pm »

AFAIK the only real debtors prisons in the US is for Child Support payments.

In the case above, and most like it, it's jail for failing to appear, when a judge says he wants to see you at a given date and time, and you ignore it, he can issue a warrant for your arrest to make you show up. Calling that debtors prison is like calling jury duty slavery; you have an obligation to participate like it or not, you can't ignore your legal obligations.

However, in the particular case above, there does seem to have been an error, so she could probably sue over it.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1146 on: April 24, 2012, 03:19:09 pm »

"You ignore it" is certainly an... interesting... way to phrase how this usually occurs. There use to be a legal requirement that they actually told you, but it no longer exists in most places. Now, they simply need to have "tried" to tell you or "potentially" told you.

Though I do find the whole "You cannot afford to pay this bill, so we will need you to both miss out on a days income, as well as pay what may be significant transportation costs, in order to prove it."

And even if you DO, it basically gets you back to the same situation you were before.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1147 on: April 24, 2012, 04:21:43 pm »

"You ignore it" is certainly an... interesting... way to phrase how this usually occurs. There use to be a legal requirement that they actually told you, but it no longer exists in most places. Now, they simply need to have "tried" to tell you or "potentially" told you.

Though I do find the whole "You cannot afford to pay this bill, so we will need you to both miss out on a days income, as well as pay what may be significant transportation costs, in order to prove it."

And even if you DO, it basically gets you back to the same situation you were before.

This is called service of process and it's a major pain under Rule 3. Here's what happened. It used to be, believe it or not, fairly easy to find people. Now, people actually freaking hide or just are somehow hard to find. They don't even use landlines anymore, they use a cell phone so they aren't even in the book....

It's often hard to know where to send something certified mail to someone, or they'll get the cert mail and just refuse to accept/sign for it. Then you send it regular mail. Process servers are possible but expensive and they earn it. Some asshole tried to slug me in the face right in front of a Cleveland Police Officer for serving him papers. So given that people, in practicality, have tried to game the system, this means it is now ruined for everyone.

Now, that's not to say there aren't unscrupulous plaintiffs out there abusing the system. There are, believe me, Ive seen them. Then there's the practicality of fighting it once someone has a default judgment against you you didn't know about.... People don't know to hire me, or don't want to hire a lawyer, to file a 60(B) motion, to challenge service and jurisdiction and sometimes they can't afford to pay me or just flat out don't fucking want to pay for a lawyer. This is how stuff goes wrong. I won't work for free (and neither will anyone else, nor should they have to).

Basically, if we don't pay for Justice, (one way or another) then we won't have it.

Creditor/Debtor rights and relations are a hard thing. Unfortunately the creditors in recent years have literally rewritten the bankruptcy code as BAPCPA in 2005. It was untouched prior to this since 1978 and was doing just fine. Even forgetting about bankruptcy, there's suit, judgment and garnishment under state law. I can see both sides of it. On the one hand, the creditor is owed their money. On the other, it isn't like you're going to squeeze blood from a stone. Though I am inclined to say that Rich people just never want to admit they lost shit or that it isn't worth what they thought it was. What do you do?

I personally hate the idea of civil imprisonment and use it as little as humanly possible if I'm suing will actually work with me and aren't just playing games. Debtor's prisons are kinda nuts as an Idea and there's a reason we got rid of them. At some point, you've gotta realize the person is not going to be able to pay the debt and the value of that debt to the creditor as an asset is not panning out. After that, you can either keep on beating that dead horse, or you can move on and try to salvage something. Pick wisely.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 04:30:26 pm by Truean »
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Realmfighter

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1148 on: April 24, 2012, 05:20:28 pm »

Most people I know who support crazy laws like that aren't looking for rehabilitation OR vengeance.

They are looking to make crime less likely to happen to them through the simple method of removing from society those most likely to commit crimes. The criminal and how he's treated doesn't really enter into the logic of the situation at all.

They aren't dicks, so they don't want to outright kill them, but they might be willing to, say, ship them off to Australia or some nonsense like that, so long as they aren't /here/, bothering /us/, you know?

But this doesn't even make logical sense. Either you have to extend all sentences to life and build a shit ton more prisons for all the people who never leave or understand that People leave prison eventually. And unless you're trying to rehabilitate them all that'll happen is that they'll commit another crime.
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:30:52 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

SomeStupidGuy

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1150 on: April 24, 2012, 10:52:00 pm »

I find that either really depressing or really amusing, not entirely sure which.
I suppose at a certain point the vague, just barely out of reach promise of something better just isn't any better than your original home, your family and all that jazz.
What I'm taking from this is that immigration need fixing and not in the form of a wall, like serious restructuring and that's fairly unlikely to be done soon.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1151 on: April 25, 2012, 12:28:28 pm »

Well, other than maybe Australia and NZ, I am struggling to think of a country with an effective and fair immigration system. Here in the UK being an island hasnt helped us at all, what with the volume of air and sea traffic, and that pesky tunnel to France.

GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1152 on: April 25, 2012, 01:17:43 pm »

But this doesn't even make logical sense. Either you have to extend all sentences to life and build a shit ton more prisons for all the people who never leave or understand that People leave prison eventually. And unless you're trying to rehabilitate them all that'll happen is that they'll commit another crime.
And after they commit another crime, they get to go back in prison. Essentially, maximizing the time they spend away from society minimizes the number of crimes they commit! Its not like we can just kill them. But yes - thats exactly the reason people with that mentality constantly push for longer, harsher sentencing laws. They just want the person away from them as long as possible - if not forever, then as close to it as possible.

Well, other than maybe Australia and NZ, I am struggling to think of a country with an effective and fair immigration system. Here in the UK being an island hasnt helped us at all, what with the volume of air and sea traffic, and that pesky tunnel to France.
NZ, at least, has some illegal immigrants. But they are really really harsh about dealing with it. I think its a 7 year prison sentence for knowingly aiding an illegal immigrant, PLUS a huge fine, plus (for businesses who hire an illegal) getting you business rights completely revoked, and obviously deportation for the person in question.

And people still slip in.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1153 on: April 25, 2012, 01:33:17 pm »

http://www.metroweekly.com/news/?ak=7288

Slooooow step forward, but progress. Doesn't help if you're self employed but.... Quite frankly it's massively huge that this ever happened at all for transgender people. 5 years ago there would've been absolutely 0% chance of this occurring and I would've literally given it a negative chance (it would not only never have a chance of coming out in favor of the transperson, but also would've smacked them down severely for no reason). Now, holy shit. There's actual precedent. It may be of limited scope and application but it's there and tis a first....

http://news.yahoo.com/marines-discharge-sergeant-facebook-posts-181223651.html

What part of "Commander in Chief," did he not recognize as a "superior officer?" There were USMC kicked out for criticizing Bush, and no one raised an eyebrow. This happens, suddenly its news? This is NOT news: "Service members have had their speech limited since the Civil War, especially if their comments are believed to disrupt good order and discipline." It's always been like this. You put on the uniform, you shut your mouth until you permanently take it off about your commanders including politicians.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 02:13:13 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #1154 on: April 25, 2012, 04:32:56 pm »

And people still slip in.
And they still aren't the cause of all social problems.
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