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[Capntastic]

More to the point, Catholic colleges are withholding medicine which was already covered by insurance plans paid for by student's school fees, based on the college administrations ideology.

Love how you phrase that to make it seem like the catholic schools are with holding medicine from dying african children.

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

Actually it's about your job not denying you insurance coverage based on their own religious beliefs.  If you're a janitor for a private Catholic school, there's no reason they should be able to deny your ability to use your work provided insurance coverage to get contraceptives.  Obviously if you're a die-hard by the book Catholic you wouldn't be getting birth control anyways, so it's a moot point. 98% of Catholics these days use one form of birth control or another anyways, so, again, it's a moot point on that end.

So yeah, please don't act like others are tilting at windmills when you're the one who is imagining giants.

[Criptfeind]

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

Of course, that sounds like bullshit. If there's anything that people are adamant about, it's respect for religious beliefs, if you're a believer, and containment of religious beliefs, if you aren't. Plus, I doubt you could slip a measure like that past a republican majority congress.

If you're providing medical insurance you can't say I don't believe in this particular thing so I don't have to pay for it. If your boss didn't pay for your medicine even though you had insurance just because his religion disagrees with it I doubt you would be supporting him.

Huh. I thought that it would be more like your boss paying for your medicine, but then not letting you have it. But I might be wrong.

[G-Flex]

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

Of course, that sounds like bullshit. If there's anything that people are adamant about, it's respect for religious beliefs, if you're a believer, and containment of religious beliefs, if you aren't. Plus, I doubt you could slip a measure like that past a republican majority congress.

If you're providing medical insurance you can't say I don't believe in this particular thing so I don't have to pay for it. If your boss didn't pay for your medicine even though you had insurance just because his religion disagrees with it I doubt you would be supporting him.

Worse, it's not even the Catholic institutions paying for it; it's not as if they're the ones running the health insurance companies.

[ggamer]

Interesting trend i've noticed lately:

When moderate-liberal or liberals are arguing, they cite A.M. radio, RL, and various other conservative media outlets as being the devil.

When moderate-conservatives or conservatives are arguing, they cite Newspapers, Mass media, and various other liberal media outlets as being the devil.

...Huh?  No, I don't see what point you're making, other than listing a bunch of possible news sources (with the liberal ones being much more vague than the conservative ones).

Fox News (IE a mass media source) is the main conservative one anyway, which is undeniably atrocious.  As in, regardless of your politics, their complete lack of journalistic standards is unforgivable.

Sorry bro, can't name very many lib news stations/mass media fixtures off the top of my head.

Of course. Fox news is the main conservative mass media station, because it is the only conservative mass media station. And a shitty one at that.

In fact, we can all agree that Fox news is basically run by a bunch of assholes.

More to the point, Catholic colleges are withholding medicine which was already covered by insurance plans paid for by student's school fees, based on the college administrations ideology.

Love how you phrase that to make it seem like the catholic schools are with holding medicine from dying african children.

Uh... no?  He said what they're actually doing.

Bro, i'm not going to get into an argument over semantics with you. It may be hard to believe, but some people can twist facts to force a certain view while still, technically, telling the truth.

I would rather not dwell on this, as I know jack shit about the issue, beyond what I've heard from other christians.

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

Of course, that sounds like bullshit. If there's anything that people are adamant about, it's respect for religious beliefs, if you're a believer, and containment of religious beliefs, if you aren't. Plus, I doubt you could slip a measure like that past a republican majority congress.

If you're providing medical insurance you can't say I don't believe in this particular thing so I don't have to pay for it. If your boss didn't pay for your medicine even though you had insurance just because his religion disagrees with it I doubt you would be supporting him.

If the government required that atheists pay for mission trips to help build houses for rural south african communities, would you oppose it?

@Capntastic

Catholics and Baptists are, though they are both christian, completely separate denominations.

If i'm reading this correctly, however, the issue is that the insurance plans already taken out by catholic churches have been changed to account for contraceptive costs.

Or they knew this and took out the insurance policy anyway. Which would be stupid.

[Capntastic]

@Capntastic

Catholics and Baptists are, though they are both christian, completely separate denominations.

If i'm reading this correctly, however, the issue is that the insurance plans already taken out by catholic churches have been changed to account for contraceptive costs.

Or they knew this and took out the insurance policy anyway. Which would be stupid.

What do different denominations have to do with anything anyone's been arguing?

And reading what correctly?  Cite something.

And again this isn't about Church insurance policies, it's about businesses owned by religious people who don't want their employees (who may or may not be religious, and may or may not have problems with birth control) to have access to contraception.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Sorry bro, can't name very many lib news stations/mass media fixtures off the top of my head.

CNN and NPR.

I would rather not dwell on this, as I know jack shit about the issue, beyond what I've heard from other christians.

You shouldn't run your typing fingers on issues where your only information is from people who have a reason to be biased on it.

If the government required that atheists pay for mission trips to help build houses for rural south african communities, would you oppose it?

Healthcare =/= Missionaries

[Capntastic]

If the government required that atheists pay for mission trips to help build houses for rural south african communities, would you oppose it?

I want to address this, because I don't know if you're trying to intentionally invoke an idea that atheists don't do altruistic things like this, or what.  The US does spend a certain amount of tax money on humanitarian efforts, and I'm completely fine with that, and wish the amount were higher.  But I would absolutely oppose the idea of tax money being spent on promoting any religion, not because I'm an atheist, but because government has no business doing that. 

To the same end, a person's personal religion should have no bearing on them being able to approve or deny medical stuff for others.

[Realmfighter]

If the government required that atheists pay for mission trips to help build houses for rural south african communities, would you oppose it?

I fail to see how the government making you pay for mission trips is related to the government requiring health insurance providers to, you know, provide health care

[Capntastic]

I suggest we avoid a dogpile while GGamer gathers his thoughts.  I mean, he's admitted already he doesn't really know what he's talking about-- we should have the aim of guiding him to a better understanding. 

I'll try to gather some good summary articles on the whole healthcare/contraception debacle.

[Reelya]

More to the point, Catholic colleges are withholding medicine which was already covered by insurance plans paid for by student's school fees, based on the college administrations ideology.

Love how you phrase that to make it seem like the catholic schools are with holding medicine from dying african children.

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

Of course, that sounds like bullshit. If there's anything that people are adamant about, it's respect for religious beliefs, if you're a believer, and containment of religious beliefs, if you aren't. Plus, I doubt you could slip a measure like that past a republican majority congress.

That "dying african children" thing is a total straw man, i never said anything of the sort. They "withholding" stuff - fact. it's medicine - fact. Already paid for by students - fact. The withholding is based on the colleges ideology -fact.

There's nothing in my statement which plays on any emotions about "dying children". They paid for it, give them what they paid for and don't be jerks about it, the college doesn't own the students.

---

Citation for this from a reputable source about the morning after pill thing?

Googling "Obama morning after pill" gives links which all cite this story :

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/us/obama-backs-aides-stance-on-morning-after-pill.html

"Obama Endorses Decision to Limit Morning-After Pill"

[Bauglir]

The thing is, the institutions in question are paying for the contraception included in the plan. Spending money has nothing to do with it. What they're doing is buying plans that include these things, presumably because those are the most cost-effective plans, and then requesting that the insurance providers not pay for contraception. The reasoning here is purely that they don't want to have unwittingly contributed to a series of events that leads to something they find morally abhorrent; it isn't about spending money they don't want to or otherwise being compelled to make a material sacrifice. It's about avoiding being an accessory to a spiritual crime. That's as charitable a statement as I can make about it.

The problem with this reasoning is that literally anything they do could so contribute (Built a road lately? Oh jeez, look at that 32 car pileup. Held the door open at the gas station? Great, you just made it a little easier for that guy to rob the place. Bought bread lately? Turns out the baker is a child molester.). This is way beyond a reasonable action to take, and really needs to be left up to individual employees. Although really, I don't understand why health insurance is tied up with employers anyway. Probably because buying a huge batch of policies allows for a better rate than buying each individually, resulting in a savings for employees, but even so, it feels like an awful kludge to get things to work. It's like leaving an uncommented magic number as a critical part of your code.

[Criptfeind]

Citation for this from a reputable source?

Why would you need a citation for what he already called bullshit?

[Reelya]

ggamer said

No, the reason is that, from what I have heard, the government has started forcing various catholic institutions to pay for various contraceptive medications, i.e. abortion and morning-after pills.

He stated this as fact. Where's the proof that this is the thing? Where did he hear this, i'd like to see the sources.

[Criptfeind]

First off, no. That is a statement of what he has heard, not as statement of fact.

Secondly the very next sentence was saying he does not believe what he heard.

[Bauglir]

Oh, addendum to my post. Since employees also typically pay for their own insurance plans, or in some other way have the cost factored into their paycheck, that's another reason it shouldn't be up to the employer.