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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285972 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #300 on: March 07, 2012, 05:59:08 pm »

He did not know where the crap he was and he did a bad job of covering it.

Sure. Assume that. Fine. Whatever.
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #301 on: March 07, 2012, 06:06:56 pm »

Criptfeind, he's in the running for the most powerful position on the planet, in a pretty hectic time.   What's wrong with demanding something above what one would expect from a typical person?  Even our special service armed forces members are tested strenuously, pushed beyond all normal capacity, taken to their limits, and still expected to perform.  And we have thousands of them. 

Why should we not desire, as our leader, someone who is undeniably pristine in thought and mental faculties?
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Criptfeind

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #302 on: March 07, 2012, 06:10:03 pm »

We should desire such. And sure, it is a issue no matter what but we can not know how much. What I take issue with is basically Truean stating how much of a issue it is, then saying that I am simply wrong if I do not agree with his assumption.
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #303 on: March 07, 2012, 06:15:26 pm »

All Truean is saying is that it's indicative of a vague tinge of unfitness for that position-- if his age is going to be his handicap, at 70, what can we expect in the next 4 years?  It's not untoward to call attention to that sort of thing. 

You can't even say "oh well campaign schedules are Hell!" because being President is being micromanaged down to 15 minute blocks for practically 4 years straight- with the weight of a good portion of the world on your shoulders.

Truean, nor I, am saying it should be the sole factor in castigating the man, no, indeed, there are other things to consider.  But this is actually an important and telling event, no matter how minor it may seem to you.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #304 on: March 07, 2012, 06:40:23 pm »

All Truean is saying is that it's indicative of a vague tinge of unfitness for that position-- if his age is going to be his handicap, at 70, what can we expect in the next 4 years?  It's not untoward to call attention to that sort of thing. 

You can't even say "oh well campaign schedules are Hell!" because being President is being micromanaged down to 15 minute blocks for practically 4 years straight- with the weight of a good portion of the world on your shoulders.

Truean, nor I, am saying it should be the sole factor in castigating the man, no, indeed, there are other things to consider.  But this is actually an important and telling event, no matter how minor it may seem to you.

Yes.

We should desire such. And sure, it is a issue no matter what but we can not know how much. What I take issue with is basically Truean stating how much of a issue it is, then saying that I am simply wrong if I do not agree with his assumption.

Huh? ???

Where am I saying you're simply wrong if you don't agree with me? Quote it...?

We have a different opinion of what happened than you do. I presented an article with video and transcript of facts that occurred. I agree with the article's author about those events. I offered my practical experience on related events I've experienced and repeatedly seen others experience. There is no and can be no "experimental" evidence on when someone is and is not paying attention in practical life, so ... this is what we have....

Absolute certainty isn't required, nor should or can it be expected, concerning exactly what happened. Life works on educated guesses based on what we observe. I posted an article. You wondered what I found wrong about it. I told you. You disagreed. I and others told you why we thought it was an issue. You disagreed with it and wondered if people didn't read it. After some people explained why they thought the way they did, Capntastic quoted the article transcript for you showing why the "he was asleep and disoriented" side believes that. I further illustrated why I thought the way I did with practical experience. In response, you stated it was an assumption and appear to have gotten somewhat upset.

People are going to hold different opinions than you and they should (but sadly often don't) explain why they hold those opinions. We did that. Not sure why you "take issue" with this.
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #305 on: March 07, 2012, 06:46:14 pm »

Further in that direction, if he's arguing about the scale of how big a faux pas it was and how it reflects on potential presidency, Criptfiend has offered no real evidence beyond "i don't think it's that bad, lay off him!", while I and others have indicated that being awake and lucid is actually very important for someone who needs to be agile in their decisionmaking.  There is more evidence, factually and anecdotally, that it is, indeed, an important trait.

So, in reality, it seems to be you saying that we're wrong about this, both concerning the facts of the event, and the severity of it, despite evidence being on our side.

It's one thing to say "I still don't think it's that big of a deal" but to call us out as big ol' meanies for holding the opposite view is sort of self-defeating.

Edit:  Besides all of this, as I said before, it's not like this anywhere near the deciding factor of how awful a person Gingrich is both personally and in the political arena.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:49:02 pm by Capntastic »
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #306 on: March 07, 2012, 06:57:48 pm »

Golden opportunity:

Burden of proof is on me, because I'm saying X is true. It is not true until and unless I satisfy that burden. That burden isn't and can't be "absolutely prove it," cause that just will never happen. Heck, in most civil trials we're talking 51% more likely than not as the standard.

Your first issue was "Truean, what are you even saying is the problem here?" You and I then disagreed if it was a problem/what I was saying was relevant.

Your second issue was essentially, "Truean, you can't meet your burden of proof/You said it but can't prove it/You're just assuming" I and others offered more proof (which you may or may not think is valid).

Now is when it goes to trial/people decide what they think. Did I meet my burden of proof? I dunno, I'm not even sure what the rules and standards I'm supposed to use to determine my burden are here. Why don't... all of you...  ;) ... decide... if I have or haven't? :P

To review, I am not corrupting your youth. That's next Tuesday. Does no one respect my schedule? :P
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:12:14 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Criptfeind

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #307 on: March 07, 2012, 08:43:34 pm »

Things like that are not a issue if you present opinions as opinions and not as facts (tm). Or even as facts (good enough).

Fact 1 (tm): The president needs certain qualities.

Fact 2 (good enough): Some of these qualities involve attentiveness and awareness of surroundings.

Fact 3 (good enough): This news thing and video shows that Newty may have issues in these areas.

Opinion 1: He has issues to the extent that it is a Big Deal.

Now. The issue here is that this is how I see it and you seem to be saying these are all facts. Furthermore, all your attempts to make me believe your opinion have basically been terrible metaphors that don't work and repeated statements of the first premise that this is a Big Deal.

This is how this conversation has been to my eyes: (Me being me and you being everyone else that does not agree with me.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway. Now that I have fulfilled my quota of the use of the word "goober" for 2012...

Where am I saying you're simply wrong if you don't agree with me? Quote it...?

.... It's called planning and a president really should know where the crap he is.
Not only fall asleep in the job interview, but wake up, take a couple seconds to compose yourself and then forget where the hell you are and why you're there....
He did not know where the crap he was and he did a bad job of covering it.

These are three things said as fact. If I do not agree with them, I am disagreeing with facts. If I am disagreeing with facts, I am simply wrong. And I do not feel that you have proved these as facts. They are reasonable assumptions but they are not facts. But, as said, if I hold other assumptions, even reasonable ones, they go against your factsumptions and thus make me simply wrong.

We have a different opinion of what happened than you do. I presented an article with video and transcript of facts that occurred. I agree with the article's author about those events.

And then you extrapolated heavily well still presenting them as facts.

Absolute certainty isn't required, nor should or can it be expected, concerning exactly what happened. Life works on educated guesses based on what we observe.

No, I am not asking for facts (tm) from you. But so long as there is a reasonable other argument I would expect you to not act like there was not.

People are going to hold different opinions than you and they should (but sadly often don't) explain why they hold those opinions. We did that. Not sure why you "take issue" with this.

I... Wait. Well. If I am quoting something you put into quote marks, do I use just "? Or '"? Or ""? Hell, since I said it first do I not use any marks?

To be safe.

I """""""""""""Take issue""""""""""""with" the presentations of what you just called opinions as facts. Not anything with how you backed them up or something.

Further in that direction, if he's arguing about the scale of how big a faux pas it was and how it reflects on potential presidency, Criptfiend has offered no real evidence beyond "i don't think it's that bad, lay off him!", while I and others have indicated that being awake and lucid is actually very important for someone who needs to be agile in their decision making.  There is more evidence, factually and anecdotally, that it is, indeed, an important trait.

First off, I may type as I talk (slowly, with lots of pauses), ignore all rules of grammar and I sometimes even transcribe my accent for reasons that are not clear to me, but I always capitalize my Is.  Second off, I offered a opinion and defended it as a opinion and this argument is not even about that anymore. It's really hard to respond to you after I already did to Truean, no offense but he is much funner to talk to.

So, in reality, it seems to be you saying that we're wrong about this, both concerning the facts of the event, and the severity of it, despite evidence being on our side.

Evidence? Evidence? What Evidence? That such traits are something a leader should have? That was not in question. That Newty greatly lacks it or that this news shows that he greatly lacks it? All I see for that is... Lies and nothing. The only half good points I see in this argument have nothing to do with it. All I see is people trying to prove something else then saying that it is somehow related. (See above spoiler.)
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #308 on: March 08, 2012, 12:58:06 am »

Okay so you don't consider our arguments or evidence (the video itself, chiefly, and commentary) as worthy of consideration.   That's cool I guess, you're welcome to your opinion.  No one's disputing that.  The thing is that you've yet to provide anything on your own to explain why we're wrong, which, as I said prior, is odd, since you're saying it's not even an issue worth caring about.

You can't say "no you guys are wrong it's not a bad thing" and expect us to ignore the evidence we've gathered (even if you think it's not important), and then say "it's not a big deal anyways" when we ask you to convince us.

I mean, Truean went through the trouble of explaining the line of the conversation, linking to specific posts, by way of helping you realize that you're not actually having a discussion in good faith.   Your apparent response to that is to do the same, only making a ridiculous strawman of us, pretending we've just been calling him a goober over and over.  I'm even willing to look past the fact that you're literally calling us liars because, really, it's just your opinion and you've yet to actually go beyond stating your opinion and sticking to it without evidence.  I'm fine with that, though I really shouldn't be!

I will point out that you are apparently fine with admitting that a lot of the things we've been saying "totally make no sense" to you.  Would you be fine with clarifying what you're not understanding?
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Reelya

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #309 on: March 08, 2012, 01:03:48 am »

Criptfiend, you claim not to understand any of truean's arguments? Personal lack of comprehension is not proof that the opposing person is wrong, just that you don't understand what's been said, or you've chosen to "play dumb" and ignore all opposing arguments.

One thing Truean said made a lot more sense of the video to me, especially "panel" part. He was clearly fishing for context, had no idea where he was.

It's like you're chatting up a girl and you've forgotten her name. VERY close metaphor, because blatantly asking "what's your name again" is extremely embarassing, so you try and think of ways to get her to say her name (or just hope she/someone says it). In this case Gingrich couldn't ask "where the hell am I again?" in the same way you wouldn't want to have to ask the girl her name again.

In both situations it's broadly equivalent to an interview (you're advertising yourself to be selected for a role).

And when he couldn't get any context he pulled out the canard of, let's go kill some horrible Muslims. ("The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming"). Which is a very tired fall-back. He had nothing concrete to add to the dialogue.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:07:30 am by Reelya »
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #310 on: March 08, 2012, 01:07:51 am »

What Capntastic said. Also what Reelya said. :)

So.... There are a couple different ways to prove things. There are empirical experiments. Talk to Capntastic about those because he's an empiricist. I'm a rationalist. And never the two shall agree. Well, that's not true. We can of course agree that perpetual motion has something to do with buttered bread strapped to the back of a cat. That is, however, a discussion for another time. Also Capntastic is plenty fun to talk to.

Thankfully, what is normally considered boring and unnecessary detail is my specialty! :P

Ok, so here's how this is gonna go:
I.) "Evidence," and "Facts"
II.) CRAC form for analytical decision making.

I.) "Evidence," and "Facts"

Evidence is a thing that has a tendency to prove a fact or contributes to proving a fact. A case is a brick wall and each piece of evidence is a brick in that wall. One single thing, taken by itself might mean nothing, but when put together with others may infer some fact. Evidence may be of many types, including testimonial, written, recorded, audio, or visual or expert (which is often anecdotal as experts will give conflicting opinions). The word "opinion" is rarely used in law, except when an expert, such as a doctor, or a tire expert, or an accident reconstructionist, gives their opinion.

The reason the word and meaning behind, "opinion" is not used, is because it is understood that we often cannot know "facts" objectively, even of physical actions. The prosecution uses evidence to support its theory of the case to prove "facts" (what you would call opinions) and the defense does the same. Each side attempts to tear the other down.

I do not know and cannot know if someone committed a given crime, especially if there are no witnesses. The prosecution also cannot know, as they certainly weren't there either. Yet, the prosecution will say it's evidence proves "facts." These can't be objectively verified, but the facts can sometimes be inferred from certain evidence, which is very often circumstantial only. Often it is incredibly important just to establish that a defendant was at the crime scene and unfortunately the jury will often say that, "X happened there and he was {the only one} there so it must have been him," and convict.

At some point, it's just persuasion. Peppering statements with, "I say ______," "in my opinion," or "I believe that ____," is meaningless, empty and redundant. Of course you're saying it. Of course its your opinion otherwise you wouldn't be saying it (or you'd be saying it was someone else's opinion). Of course you believe ____ if you're saying it, because it's assumed you say what you believe (that you don't lie) unless stated otherwise. Persuasive people don't bother doing this and that's fine.

II.) CRAC form for analytical decision making.

You are categorizing things as "fact" v. "opinion." That's not going to get anyone anywhere. There is nothing but fact in the world, it's just that we can't KNOW all of them. So, we have to use educated guesses on the ones we can't know. It is a fact that either 1.) Mr. Gingrich was aware of where he was, or 2.) He was not aware of where he was. <--- One of these two things is true. We may not know exactly which one, but one of these is true. We can either spend our lives not knowing/caring, or we can infer which factual state is true based upon what we observe: the video and transcript in the article.

Conclusion: What you have inferred
Rule: The standard by which you inferred it
Analysis: The facts applied to the rule by which you reached your conclusion
Conclusion: restate the conclusion.

or the more detailed:

Conclusion
Rule
Analysis
Counterargument: Whereby you attempt to make a good faith effort to show the other side
Counter to Counter: Whereby you attempt to counter the other side preemptively.
Conclusion

_________________________________________________________________

The argument and one product of the stuff that went into it:

[Conclusion]
Mr. Gingrich was not professionally courteous and aware at a public speaking engagement.
[Rule] The (potential) President of the US should be professionally courteous and aware at all public speaking engagements and should act as such.
[Analysis] Mr. Gingrich appears to have nodded off on camera, said some completely unrelated comment about talking to the secretary of defense (who was not present at all), believed there was a panel with questions for him when there was none, asked said panel to question him, awkwardly paused silently for several seconds when he was supposed to give a prepared speech, and failed to give his prepared speech.
[Counterargument] Mr. Gingrich may have just harmlessly dozed off before the speech.
[Counter to counter] He still failed to give the speech he prepared and instead of giving a speech like he was supposed to, he asked a non existent panel to question him....
[Conclusion] Thus, Mr. Gingrich was not professionally courteous and aware at a public speaking engagement.
__________________________________________________________________
There are some unspoken rules in there. Namely, that when you are supposed to give a speech in front of a large audience, you give it. You do not ask a non existent panel for questions instead of giving said prepared speech. You don't just put your face up on a giant screen in front of an audience like that without having something to say already written up.

In other words, even if I take what you say as true, that he was just falling asleep BEFORE the speech, it still effected his performance during the speech. Namely, he completely spaced and didn't give his prepared speech at all. He also got the format entirely wrong, you don't start a speech like that by asking questions, you save questions to the end. It wasn't a Q & A anyhow, it was a speech.

And again, as Capntastic has said, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence or argument to rebut what we've said or what we've pointed out. Honest question, does your argument amount to, "but we can't know for sure?"
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:25:40 am by Truean »
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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #311 on: March 08, 2012, 01:34:32 am »

Hey guys, just came in for a cup of coffee and the evening news, whats been... Well. Ok then, few walls of text to go over, let's see get some reading done. Good to see the spirit of debate lives on!

EDIT:
Well ok, that was interesting. Newt took a nap, fine, he is only human. He might have taken it as some what of a bad time, but I'm not going to condemn him for it. As for 'Having no idea where he was when he woke up', well I'm often just as hazy when I wake up. It is easy to say that he should have planned his schedule better, but I'm sure he is a very busy man with a lot of things to do. Let's face it, an old man falling asleep and taking more than a second to snap back awake isn't unheard of, and although it is certainly not something I would like to see in a world leader, I would certainly vote for him if it was the worst thing he ever did.
Having said that, this is Newt Gingrich. Taking a nap is far, far, far, far from the worst thing he ever did. For this guy, taking a nap is on the good end of the scale. If you want to attack Gingrich, I have much better ammo for you than 'The guy gets tired sometimes'

He goofed up, it wasn't really that bad, who cares he wasn't going to win anyway.

Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #312 on: March 08, 2012, 01:57:26 am »

He goofed up, it wasn't really that bad, who cares he wasn't going to win anyway.

Exactly why it was the perfect opportunity to get this kind of stuff out of the way. The insignificance of the event in the grand scheme of things should, in theory, make it easier to deal with this preliminary proof stuff, because people aren't going to be emotionally charged about it. I wouldn't try that on a hot button issue.

"Alright people let's calm down for a second and consider instead the form and procedure for.... That's a knife isn't it? You know what, never mind...." :P
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:59:02 am by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #313 on: March 08, 2012, 02:27:49 am »

Re; Napping Not Being Too Bad:  I was discussing this with a friend, and while we agree that the napping isn't too huge a deal, even if it's certainly not ideal, Newt has too many other heinous flaws in personality and goals for it to matter much.  Which is why napping, on top of all of that, is indicative of how bad he is overall.

So yeah, I have no problem with Criptfeind not 'caring', so long as they understand that trying to shut down a conversation because they don't see it as important isn't conducive to, you know, discussion.
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Reelya

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #314 on: March 08, 2012, 03:32:08 am »

Criptfiend, you say that Truean posting her opinions as fact is a personal slight on you?

Look at what you said to shut other people up :-

Critfiend wrote:

Quote
I'm seriously getting the feeling you did not actually read the thing or watch the video. Which if that is the case you should most likely do that before you argue about it.

Quote
What? Seriously? Did you actually read it? Or just the head line?

^ Both those attack the speaker, not the argument. Those seem to be Ad hominem attacks, and appeal to ridicule.

Quote
He also obviously knew where he was, he just thought there was a panel.

^ How's it "obviously" true? You claimed you stated everything as opinion only, and did NOT claim things as facts in this debate. It's relevant since you made a big deal out of accusing others of doing this. What happened to his prepared speech if he knew just what was going on?

Quote
I had no idea that it was disrespectful in China to nap before meeting with someone.

Oh wait. Even if is in China, this is America where it is not, so his behavior in this says nothing about his nap habits before he meets with a Chinese diplomat.

^ also with the condescending tone. And you make the assertion it's NOT disrespectful to fall asleep IN THE ROOM with the person you're meant to meet, unless it's your turn to talk. This is also stated as a fact, not opinion. "this is America where it is not" rather than "this is America where I do not believe it is"

So he slept through other people's turn to talk and that's not disrepectful? Just because you assert it isn't?

Quote
Is there something wrong with me that I don't see the issue with taking a bit of a nap before you go on a show?

Here, you play the victim "Is there something wrong with me" when nobody said anything that could be construed as a negative personal attack. Actually it's the first thing you said, so your opening gambit utilized setting yourself up as a the victim before anyone else said anything to you. How can we take seriously your claim that others made you the victim later when you're very first utterance claimed that your views made you a victim?

Anyway, he was ON the show, not "before you go on the show". It just wasn't his turn to talk yet.

Quote
To use your hypothetical, he fell asleep in the waiting room before the interview, then assumed the interviewer would be asking questions.

But, what happened to the speech he was there to give? That's why he was there, so clearly he forgot what was going on.

Quote
Be perfect in other words?

I mean. It's not like it was even a huge mistake.

That's not "other words" for what Truean said, that's a classic straw man, because Truean never said "be perfect" or anything that can be even remotely close to that, what Truean said was :-

Quote
.... It's called planning and a president really should know where the crap he is. Also if you're sitting down ready to talk on camera, it isn't hard to have one page of abridged notes open.

knowing where the F you are, and having some written notes. That's just the basics, not "being perfect" by any stretch of the imagination. High school kids can get this stuff. He has campaign aides who should be able to handle that. Not being prepared for a speech is not recoverable in an election campaign.

You claim "It's not like it was even a huge mistake." as a definite fact, no couching as "opinion". The very fact that he's running for office and it's on the news makes it a mistake.

What i see here is a pattern of "playing the victim", "ad hominem", "Appeal to Ridicule" fallacy, and "straw man" fallacy.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:25:14 am by Reelya »
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