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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1290723 times)

Sirus

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #255 on: March 07, 2012, 03:06:15 am »

Rush Limbaugh loses forever.   Seriously, this guy has issues, I swear.
Is anyone really surprised? Really?
Yes, it's old news, but anyone shocked by these statements clearly hasn't seen enough of Limbaugh's work.
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #256 on: March 07, 2012, 03:10:37 am »

Don't talk about Rush Limbaugh, he's literally a troll.
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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #257 on: March 07, 2012, 03:18:44 am »

So basically a one man Westboro Baptist Church... Great.  ::)

Sirus

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #258 on: March 07, 2012, 03:21:06 am »

I'm pretty sure I've made that exact comparison before....
It's probably a common one.

ETA: Yep.
Limbaugh is like a solitary WBC member: a troll with no real purpose. I wish someone would sue him, but he's got 1st Amendment rights too. My take on it is that just as Ms Fluke is allowed to go before Congress and testify, so is Mr Limbaugh allowed to criticize her for it. It's just that Limbaugh is far more mean-spirited.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:24:33 am by Sirus »
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #259 on: March 07, 2012, 03:22:18 am »

Just gonna transcribe this from a Facebook discussion I just had, it's important and relevant to everyone's day to day life:


http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/media/view/?id=7360f2fb-7067-4b0e-bcd8-8a3f9afb70ac

Oh hey look a politician actually decided to admit that maybe letting banks dictate the prices of things people need to live might be pretty shitty.

I'll note that people only decided to address gas prices being 'high' (still far less than Europe pays), but there's literally no mentioning that speculators have driven the price of grain up so much that, even with surpluses, people across the globe have been priced out of the ability to not starve.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/27/how_goldman_sachs_created_the_food_crisis

If you're not familiar with the GSCI, it's basically a stock market for Oil, Metals, Food and Agriculture (grains, cocoa, cotton, livestock) that the US government let Goldman Sachs have exclusive rights to speculate in.

Speculation works like this: You run a car dealership. I come in and say "I'd like to buy 50 thousand dollars worth of cars." I don't care what cars I buy, I'm not going to drive them. You have literally no reason not to sell me any old car, say, a used car normally worth 10 thousand dollars, for 50 thousand dollars, because I'm not being picky. But then, because I keep placing orders like this, with billions of dollars, soon anyone who wants that crummy 10 thousand dollar car is going to have to pay more than 50 thousand dollars for it.

It's more complicated than that, given that Goldman Sachs isn't even buying the oil so much as placing theoretical orders they never intend to cash in, so they claim the rights of being able to buy it, etc. There's a lot of banking magic involved, but the point is that when oil prices go up, they make huge money, (everyone else in America loses), and when oil prices bottom out (which is a carefully managed cooling process by Goldman Sachs, wherein they still make money off of trading fees) they still come out of it risk free.

It's not an issue of supply and demand, given oil supplies have stayed the same or gone up in the last decade, and demand has actually gone down. It's an issue of the government letting a wholly self-interested group come in and gamble on everyone's livelihood.

And normal people can't partake in this win/win scheme- again, only Goldman Sachs has the special status to do this.

It has very little to do with 'unrest in the Middle East'. So, in closing,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjN2AegiMAA


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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #260 on: March 07, 2012, 03:32:34 am »

Wow... Why did they make this a thing that is a thing that only one specific group can buy into?

Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #261 on: March 07, 2012, 03:44:18 am »

Lemme clarify:  You, a person, can invest money in the S&P GSCI, essentially paying Goldman Sachs to speculate on your behalf, with their special status.  The thing is that their methodology isn't investment so much as buying long term agreements which they roll over indefinitely.  It's very, very complicated banker's magic.  Goldman Sachs convinced the US government that they needed to be involved in speculating on these things because, well, "THE FREE MARKET".

The thing is that speculation is an important part of any market, as it causes fluidity.  Jeff the Farmer and Shemp the Baker need to be able to schedule around each other's supply and demands, so they put in speculative orders to come to agreements ahead of time.  This is a good thing.   The problems only arise when Goldman Sachs the banker, who neither supplies nor demands, nor cares about grain or bread or people, comes in and starts interfering to try to make profit from the system.   It is literally parasitism, to the detriment of the rest of the people involved.



http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3396041&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1  Here's a more detailed look into it, without being too fancy.  It's by an SA buddy of mine, Petey!  He did a good job.

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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #262 on: March 07, 2012, 03:44:46 am »

It started out ok but then some assholes ruined it.

It's actually a good idea when highly regulated in certain cases. "Future's Contracts," are betting on the price of a bushel of grain 6 months in the future. The idea WAS to move the risk of price fluctuations from the farmer to some investor. The investor guarenteed he'd buy from the farmer for $50/Bushel, thus insuring the farmer would ALWAYS get at least that much Even if the price per bushel was $40, the farmer would still get $50, thus acting as a kind of insurance if supply went up and thus price went down. Conversely, the investor took this risk because he was hoping the price would end up being $60/bushel when he was paying $50 for it.

IN SHORT: It was supposed to keep prices stable and guard against price fluctuations. It was a kind of insurance, which it's fine to get rich off as long as the purpose is at core.

Now, it's been perverted.

Purpose is everything.
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #263 on: March 07, 2012, 03:56:06 am »

It's important to note that the "financial sector" is a huge problem with the U.S. economy right now.  Especially with regard to the myth of the job creator- again, there's more profit in shuffling money around and hoarding it in specific patterns, accruing packages of wealth by betting on 'sure things', then there is in the traditional use of 'investing', ie, providing capital to companies and people that intend to put that money to, what some would call, an honest use.

This is what caused The Great Depression, where regulations on that sort of thing were so lax that a huge portion of the country's wealth was tied up in basically abstracted ways.  It's not 'Progressive' to say that banking regulations need to be tightened, it's literally just knowledge from past mistakes.

Edit:  It also highlights why companies are so concerned with short term profits:  Money now means money hoarded, which is, in many ways, more lucrative than real life capital (in terms of equipment, employees, storefront locations).   Best Buy, for example, is pleased to fire their top staff and close down locations left and right because, on paper, it allows them to appear as if they are on the road to getting back in the black.  This is short sighted idiocy, which should be apparent to anyone trying to run a business.

Edit 2:  And this, of course, leads to the inevitable railing against cut throat capitalism, wherein corporate interests do real, lasting harm to people, ruining them.  What's more, on the micro-economics scale, piles of money are shuffled into the wallets of those that 'succeed', while the actual beast of our economy is ragged and dying.  On the macro-economics side of thing- America's output of wealth as a whole, suffers.  I had to explain this to someone, on another forum, that when there is a personal incentive to not create things that people need, and to not employ people and provide them with a livelihood, there is a very bad thing going on.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:02:31 am by Capntastic »
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Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #264 on: March 07, 2012, 04:09:54 am »

Going to Double Post here because I'm on a roll, and have some more GOOD READING for you GOOD PEOPLE



"Money is the real cause of poverty," said Owen.

"Prove it," repeated Crass.

"Money is the cause of poverty because it is the device by which those who are too lazy to work are enabled to rob the workers of the fruits of their labour."

"Prove it," said Crass.

Owen slowly folded up the piece of newspaper he had been reading and put it in his pocket.

"All right," he replied. "I'll show you how the Great Money Trick is worked."

Owen opened his dinner basket and took from it two slices of bread, but as these where not sufficient, he requested that anyone who had some bread left should give it to him. They gave him several pieces, which he placed in a heap on a clean piece of paper, and, having borrowed the pocket knives of Easton, Harlow and Philpot, he addressed the, as follows:
"These pieces of bread represent the raw materials which exist naturally in and on the earth for the use of mankind; they were not made by any human being, but were created for the benefit and sustenance of all, the same as were the air and the light of the sun."

"Now," continued Owen, "I am a capitalist; or rather I represent the landlord and capitalist class. That is to say, all these raw materials belong to me. It does not matter for our present argument how I obtained possession of them, the only thing that matters now is the admitted fact that all the raw materials which are necessary for the production of the necessaries of life are now the property of the landlord and capitalist class. I am that class; all these raw materials belong to me."

"Now you three represent the working class. You have nothing, and, for my part, although I have these raw materials, they are of no use to me. What I need is the things that can be made out of these raw materials by work; but I am too lazy to work for me. But first I must explain that I possess something else beside the raw materials. These three knives represent all the machinery of production; the factories, tools, railways, and so forth, without which the necessaries of life cannot be produced in abundance. And these three coins" - taking three half pennies from his pocket - "represent my money, capital."

"But before we go any further," said Owen, interrupting himself, "it is important to remember that I am not supposed to be merely a capitalist. I represent the whole capitalist class. You are not supposed to be just three workers, you represent the whole working class."

Owen proceeded to cut up one of the slices of bread into a number of little square blocks.
"These represent the things which are produced by labour, aided by machinery, from the raw materials. We will suppose that three of these blocks represent a week's work. We will suppose that a week's work is worth one pound."

Owen now addressed himself to the working class as represented by Philpot, Harlow and Easton.
"You say that you are all in need of employment, and as I am the kind-hearted capitalist class I am going to invest all my money in various industries, so as to give you plenty of work. I shall pay each of you one pound per week, and a week's work is that you must each produce three of these square blocks. For doing this work you will each receive your wages; the money will be your own, to do as you like with, and the things you produce will of course be mine to do as I like with. You will each take one of these machines and as soon as you have done a week's work, you shall have your money."

The working classes accordingly set to work, and the capitalist class sat down and watched them. As soon as they had finished, they passed the nine little blocks to Owen, who placed them on a piece of paper by his side and paid the workers their wages.
"These blocks represent the necessaries of life. You can't live without some of these things, but as they belong to me, you will have to buy them from me: my price for these blocks is,one pound each."

As the working classes were in need of the necessaries of life and as they could not eat, drink or wear the useless money, they were compelled to agree to the capitalist's terms. They each bought back, and at once consumed, one-third of the produce of their labour. The capitalist class also devoured two of the square blocks, and so the net result of the week's work was that the kind capitalist had consumed two pounds worth of things produced by the labour of others, and reckoning the squares at their market value of one pound each, he had more than doubled his capital, for he still possessed the three pounds in money and in addition four pounds worth of goods. As for the working classes, Philpot, Harlow and Easton, having each consumed the pound's worth of necessaries they had bought with their wages, they were again in precisely the same condition as when they had started work - they had nothing.
This process was repeated several times; for each weeks work the producers were paid their wages. They kept on working and spending all their earnings. The kind-hearted capitalist consumed twice as much as any one of them and his pool of wealth continually increased. In a little while, reckoning the little squares at their market value of one pound each, he was worth about one hundred pounds, and the working classes were still in the same condition as when they began, and were still tearing into their work as if their lives depended on it.

After a while the rest of the crowd began to laugh, and their merriment increased when the kind-hearted capitalist, just after having sold a pound's worth of necessaries to each of his workers, suddenly took their tools, the machinery of production, the knives, away from them, and informed them that as owing to over production all his store-houses were glutted with the necessaries of life, he had decided to close down the works.

"Well, and wot the bloody 'ell are we to do now ?" demanded Philpot.

"That's not my business," replied the kind-hearted capitalist. "I've paid your wages, and provided you with plenty of work for a long time past. I have no more work for you to do at the present. Come round again in a few months time and I'll see what I can do."
"But what about the necessaries of life?" Demanded Harlow. "we must have something to eat."
"Of course you must," replied the capitalist, affably; "and I shall be very pleased to sell you some." "But we ain't got no bloody money!"

"Well, you cant expect me to give you my goods for nothing! You didn't work for nothing, you know. I paid you for your work and you should have saved something: you should have been thrifty like me. Look how I have got on by being thrifty!"
The unemployed looked blankly at each other, but the rest of the crowd only laughed; and then the three unemployed began to abuse the kind-hearted capitalist, demanding that he should give them some of the necessaries of life that he had piled up in his warehouses, or to be allowed to work and produce some more for their own needs; and even threatened to take some of the things by force if he did not comply with their demands. But the kind-hearted capitalist told them not to be insolent, and spoke to them about honesty, and said if they were not careful he would have their faces battered in for them by the police, or if necessary he would call out the military and have them shot down like dogs, the same as he had done before at Featherstone and Belfast.



While the above parable is specifically about the relationship of workers and parasites, it shows in a poignant way that 'creating wealth' is useless if it does not provide for people.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:12:33 am by Capntastic »
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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #265 on: March 07, 2012, 04:24:29 am »

The unemployed looked blankly at each other, but the rest of the crowd only laughed; and then the three unemployed began to abuse the kind-hearted capitalist, demanding that he should give them some of the necessaries of life that he had piled up in his warehouses, or to be allowed to work and produce some more for their own needs; and even threatened to take some of the things by force if he did not comply with their demands. But the kind-hearted capitalist told them not to be insolent, and spoke to them about honesty, and said if they were not careful he would have their faces battered in for them by the police, or if necessary he would call out the military and have them shot down like dogs, the same as he had done before at Featherstone and Belfast.
So I assume this is about what the Occupy Wall Street moment is up to... So what comes next? Riot? War? Rebellion?

I always found it strange that the police would stand against protesters you know. Aren't they also part of the working class? What would make them loyal the system and not others?

Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #266 on: March 07, 2012, 04:28:01 am »

The unemployed looked blankly at each other, but the rest of the crowd only laughed; and then the three unemployed began to abuse the kind-hearted capitalist, demanding that he should give them some of the necessaries of life that he had piled up in his warehouses, or to be allowed to work and produce some more for their own needs; and even threatened to take some of the things by force if he did not comply with their demands. But the kind-hearted capitalist told them not to be insolent, and spoke to them about honesty, and said if they were not careful he would have their faces battered in for them by the police, or if necessary he would call out the military and have them shot down like dogs, the same as he had done before at Featherstone and Belfast.
So I assume this is about what the Occupy Wall Street moment is up to... So what comes next? Riot? War? Rebellion?


The ultimate in progressive ideals, straight from the 40s!
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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #267 on: March 07, 2012, 04:33:06 am »

That would never work. From what I can gather, the bill of rights is the embodiment of an all powerful deity, the light of the american people! Without old fashion, unchangeable laws, they are lost in a sea of refinement. They would never accept such sacrilege as a 'Second Bill of Rights'!


Because everybody knows that the better you did the first time, the longer it is before you have to fix it, so of the bill of rights is never amended in any way, it must be prefect! And then the egg laid the chicken...

Capntastic

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #268 on: March 07, 2012, 04:36:44 am »

The problem is rooted more in the fact that people see regulating industries that have the ability to cause impossible to truly calculate danger on a wide scope as interfering with freedoms, and the basic desire to have a decent job and a decent life as begging for handouts.  The goalposts of all discourse is shifted and radicalized to the point that any historically proven solution to a historically revealed problem is drowned out in a burst of soundbites about the nanny state and (annoyingly misappropriated) 1984 references.

You can't even begin to have a legitimate conversation with anyone because as soon as you 'tip your hand' (political affiliations, even tenuously) you become the enemy who is wrong in all cases on all things.  Because everyone's personal ideology is held as being the solution for everything.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:39:05 am by Capntastic »
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Max White

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #269 on: March 07, 2012, 04:51:50 am »

Eh, that is ok, I don't have a working understanding of economics strong enough to form an understanding of just how it is broken, let alone how to fix it. Anybodies opinion is worth listening to at this stage.
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