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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1289736 times)

Lysabild

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 09:56:19 am »

I will have to post here.

Pretend this is meaningful.

Now, move along.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 10:44:35 am »

May I suggest an addendum to the part about ad hominem?


A lot of counter arguments, while directly attacking the argument rather than the person making it, leave subtle hints that "anyone who actually believes this garbage is an idiot." Most commonly seen with sarcasm and satire. This, to me, is no better than direct ad hominem.


I have extremely strong ethical issues with not calling out monsters for what they are. But I'll will certainly try to limit my snark.
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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 11:01:28 am »

http://beta.local.yahoo.com/news-home-vandalized-given-back-woman.html

All too common....

Background and Procedural Facts:
So, when the bank forecloses, they often give you an incentive to leave and just get out so they don't have to go through the longer disputed foreclosure process. It's called "Cash for Keys." Or, they just boot you out sooner or later.

Usually, when you leave the house and let the bank know, they come around and winterize the place so the pipes don't burst, etc, etc. It's part of a duty to mitigate damages so they can sell the house at sheriff's sale and apply the money they get there towards paying off the loan balance. In some states, you can have what's called a "deficiency judgment" against you if you owe more on the loan than the house brought in at Sheriff's sale. Note: in Ohio, they have deficiency judgments, but the bank has a 2 year SOL to come after you for them. So, it's really important that the bank take care of the house when you let them know you're leaving it, and they're required to....

They didn't here. The place went to hell, and all of it was foreseeable. Thieves and drug addicts hung around, ruined the place and stole nearly everything, pipes, and pretty much whatever. 

To review, bank was taking house, did nothing to safeguard or winterize it, and screwed up so badly that they just let her have what was left of the place. It's now uninhabitable from the bank's neglect. Her life is turned upside down, and nobody's gonna do much of anything.

Argument:
This is really why we need something that actually modifies mortgages in a meaningful way that keeps people in these houses. First, on average these places were simply never worth what they were purchased for to begin with. Second, foreclosure leaves a bunch of vacant houses going to hell and ruining property values for everyone in the area. Third, speaking of vacant, these places aren't doing anyone any good sitting empty (separate and aside from the second argument), we've got a bunch of people who need a place to live and empty houses.... Fourth, who fixes this gutted house, or does it stay gutted and blighted? Fifth, it just looks like neither the bank nor this woman, as owner, are going to get anything out of this; it's become a zero sum game. Sixth, let's look at it from the taxpayer standpoint for a second, locally, we're gonna have to pay to condemn and bulldoze a lot of buildings like this (and in worse conditions). This could be avoided by letting the woman stay in the house so it doesn't go to hell. Moreover, this place was a haven for crime and drugs for years under the bank's neglectful stewardship.

Counter:
You could say that this is all or mostly the owner's fault, that she shouldn't have taken out a loan she couldn't pay back etc.

Counter to Counter:
She bought the house in the 1980s, and then she certainly could make the payments. She had no reason to think she ever wouldn't be able to and it is kinda hard to predict almost 30 years out into the future. This isn't an irresponsible person in my eyes, and as someone who deals with foreclosures in a boots on the ground sense, that often isn't the case. How do you plan for losing your job 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or more years down the line? You really can't if home ownership is on the table. Fact is without a job, the overwhelming majority of people out there couldn't afford their mortgage or rent or whatever. The only way these people can "plan" for not being able to make a payment due to job loss is to never buy a home, but even then, you can't plan for the rent without a job either.

Basically:
No to vacant houses, no to people being thrown out of homes, no to setting up havens for crime and drugs, no to pawning off the bank's bad investment on local taxpayers, no to ruining the property values of entire neighborhoods. Yes to a responsible foreclosure modification program.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 11:40:10 am »

May I suggest an addendum to the part about ad hominem?


A lot of counter arguments, while directly attacking the argument rather than the person making it, leave subtle hints that "anyone who actually believes this garbage is an idiot." Most commonly seen with sarcasm and satire. This, to me, is no better than direct ad hominem.


I have extremely strong ethical issues with not calling out monsters for what they are. But I'll will certainly try to limit my snark.
You can do so by pointing out the negative repercussions of what people are advocating. If you wish to prove people are advocating "monstrous" actions, hiding your arguments under vitriol does nothing but harm your message.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Levi

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Re: poh's calm and cool progressive expression thread
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 12:07:49 pm »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/02/29/pol-robocalls-poor-losers.html
It seems the value of the vote has been furthermore diminished. If a party cannot play by the rules, why are they allowed in the game at all? This sickens me to see what our democracy has become: a party cheating in order to continue to be the government.

Its not necessarily cheating, as there isn't any real proof it wasn't just some lone jerk who wanted the conservatives to win at any cost.  What DOES annoy me is that the Harper government doesn't seem to be taking it very seriously.  The government should be the first ones stepping up to investigate and condemn an attack on democracy.

I'd like to discuss W.K. Clifford, who was a dude in the mid-1800s, a genius mathematician and philosopher, and defying all convention at the time, an atheist through and through.  What is most interesting to me about his stance on atheism is that he was not content to say "I see no evidence for God, and choose not to believe in it"- no, he went the extra step into asserting that it is unethical to live one's life predicated on a belief that is not proven.  His drive to put the nature of belief and truth under such scrutiny is what secures him as one of the greats.

Quote
It is not only the leader of men, statesmen, philosopher, or poet, that owes this bounden duty to mankind. Every rustic who delivers in the village alehouse his slow, infrequent sentences, may help to kill or keep alive the fatal superstitions which clog his race. Every hard-worked wife of an artisan may transmit to her children beliefs which shall knit society together, or rend it in pieces. No simplicity of mind, no obscurity of station, can escape the universal duty of questioning all that we believe.

Here's his "Ethics of Belief", which is solid.

Sounds like a cool guy, I wish there were more like him.  I vaguely remember reading something similar in some Richard Dawkins book about how its harmful to society to not live by rational thought and logic.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 12:15:48 pm »

Bah, my first action in this thread is only a PTF...

Nothing to see here people, move along.

penguinofhonor

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 12:36:50 pm »

I have extremely strong ethical issues with not calling out monsters for what they are. But I'll will certainly try to limit my snark.
You can do so by pointing out the negative repercussions of what people are advocating. If you wish to prove people are advocating "monstrous" actions, hiding your arguments under vitriol does nothing but harm your message.
There's definitely a line somewhere. You can argue that something is unethical, and it's sort of understood that you view people who believe/practice it to be unethical to some degree. Or you could call people idiots unproductively.

Basically, if you're in doubt, figure out whether your post will facilitate or hinder discussion.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2012, 01:31:17 pm »

Sadness for vector yet again :(

Virex

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2012, 01:39:49 pm »

" 2003, a survey of female veterans found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. A 2004 study of veterans who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder found that 71 percent of the women said they were sexually assaulted or raped while serving. And a 1995 study of female veterans of the Gulf and earlier wars, found that 90 percent had been sexually harassed."
Only 30%? That's less then some estimate for civilians, at least, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Though it may be that both studies use different metrics and definitions, I would like to see if there really is a difference between civilians and veterans on this.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 01:42:06 pm by Virex »
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G-Flex

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 02:08:17 pm »

" 2003, a survey of female veterans found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. A 2004 study of veterans who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder found that 71 percent of the women said they were sexually assaulted or raped while serving. And a 1995 study of female veterans of the Gulf and earlier wars, found that 90 percent had been sexually harassed."
Only 30%? That's less then some estimate for civilians, at least, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Though it may be that both studies use different metrics and definitions, I would like to see if there really is a difference between civilians and veterans on this.

Less than an estimate for civilians over what period of time, though? It's quite possible you're comparing statistics for people being victims of rape over the course of their lives thus far to statistics for people being victims of rape during the years spent in the military, which is likely to be a shorter time period.
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palsch

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2012, 02:21:10 pm »

Only 30%? That's less then some estimate for civilians, at least, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Though it may be that both studies use different metrics and definitions, I would like to see if there really is a difference between civilians and veterans on this.
The common number for civilians is in the region of 20%, which mostly comes from surveys that identify acts done rather than self identification or official reports. The most comprehensive and recent CDC study is available here. From the executive summary;
Quote
Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.
More than half (51.1%) of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance; for male victims, more than half (52.4%) reported being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger.
Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).
An estimated 13% of women and 6% of men have experienced sexual coercion in their lifetime (i.e., unwanted sexual penetration after being
pressured in a nonphysical way); and 27.2% of women and 11.7% of men have experienced unwanted sexual contact.
30% is closer to the numbers for combined rape, physical abuse and stalking.
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Lysabild

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2012, 02:24:27 pm »

I'm not expert, but one in five of women and 1 in 71 men seem highly skewed, I have a hard time believing that so few men and boys are molested and so many women.

But again, I don't live in America and I don't have any numbers to support this, I just remember cases of women winning trials for having been 'raped' with the only proof being her word and crocodile tears and I know men who have been molested and keep it to themselves.
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Virex

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2012, 02:32:09 pm »

" 2003, a survey of female veterans found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. A 2004 study of veterans who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder found that 71 percent of the women said they were sexually assaulted or raped while serving. And a 1995 study of female veterans of the Gulf and earlier wars, found that 90 percent had been sexually harassed."
Only 30%? That's less then some estimate for civilians, at least, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Though it may be that both studies use different metrics and definitions, I would like to see if there really is a difference between civilians and veterans on this.

Less than an estimate for civilians over what period of time, though? It's quite possible you're comparing statistics for people being victims of rape over the course of their lives thus far to statistics for people being victims of rape during the years spent in the military, which is likely to be a shorter time period.
You're right, I'm probably comparing Iphones to Oranges...


I'm not expert, but one in five of women and 1 in 71 men seem highly skewed, I have a hard time believing that so few men and boys are molested and so many women.

But again, I don't live in America and I don't have any numbers to support this, I just remember cases of women winning trials for having been 'raped' with the only proof being her word and crocodile tears and I know men who have been molested and keep it to themselves.
You'd be hard-pressed to find anecdotal evidence that is representative for (at least) 10% of the population ;)
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GlyphGryph

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Expression Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2012, 06:22:03 pm »

That said, male rapes are almost certainly under-reported, and there's probably no way to know for certain.

But hell, female rapes, even factoring in "fakeclaims", are probably under-reported as well.

It's not something people enjoy reporting.
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