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[Bauglir]

"Well, sure, but they don't have that kind of luxury so obviously they don't deserve it."

There's no mental dissonance here at all, I'm sure. Clearly, the belief that hard work is all you need to succeed (and therefore if you haven't succeeded, you aren't working hard enough) is consistent with the belief that some people have it too easy when compared to all those people who work hard and still haven't succeeded.

Thinking the world is fair and just lets us do our two most favorite things: look down at other people, and praise ourselves. Simply, "we worked hard; they didn't, so screw them."

It's all crap. Yeah, there's clearly something to be said for merit, but people have no idea how much luck really factors into it. Did you graduate college or high school in a good or bad economy? In an area with plenty of jobs around? Was your dad an alcoholic who beat the living shit out of you every chance he got? Was your mom addicted to meth? Was your high school's funding cut denying you a decent education? Did you or your parents get sick and have to declare medical bankruptcy? Were your parents able to help pay for college and reduce or eliminate that student loan debt you'll be paying for at least 10 years, if not many more than that...? There's a lot of stuff.

Should you be rewarded for merit: absolutely.
Should you look down on people: not normally.

Agreed. I think I've probably expounded on the matter enough, but since I'm posting anyway I might as well say it without the sarcasm this time: I agree completely.

[Truean]

In that discussion I had with my dad/uncle, I brought up that the free market was flawed because people don't care about things like slave labor in china. To which they responded, "Those people wouldn't have jobs at all otherwise." This is stupid, so of course I said there would be someone else to make use of the available labor and their response was that it was the government's fault for being corrupt and making it really hard for businesses to start up in China, requiring bribes and stuff. I have no clue why that justifies sweatshops, but apparently it does.

What they're saying, has no relevance whatsoever. It's cheaper to start a factory in China than most other places and further than has no logical connection at all to paying slave wages. There is nothing preventing these companies from paying above slave labor. Except of course, they specifically outsourced to China FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE of cheaper slave labor.... If they wanted to actually pay someone a living wage, then the company could've stayed in the US.

What happened to all that anti communist rhetoric I grew up with about how they were basically "Godless Commies?" Now we're doing business with them? Why? Because, survey says, it's cheaper and we don't mind exploiting their population and unemploying our own. Wait, didn't we used to yak about communists killing freedom and taking away people's freedoms? I'm pretty sure we did.

O, I see, it's ok if WE take away freedoms from people for profit. (especially if they're in another country).
It's bad if communists take away people's freedoms for direct power?

We're not hypocrits. We believe in a "Free Market," except when we want slave labor, in which case, we love communist China's controlled economy.... And apparently we're doing them a favor by giving them jobs at all, slave labor or otherwise....

So, all this "Free Market" stuff disappears when dollars start showing up? Got it. (And most people don't understand we really don't have an economic free market anyhow, because there's a definition of free market and we don't/can't possibly meet it).

"Well, sure, but they don't have that kind of luxury so obviously they don't deserve it."

There's no mental dissonance here at all, I'm sure. Clearly, the belief that hard work is all you need to succeed (and therefore if you haven't succeeded, you aren't working hard enough) is consistent with the belief that some people have it too easy when compared to all those people who work hard and still haven't succeeded.

Thinking the world is fair and just lets us do our two most favorite things: look down at other people, and praise ourselves. Simply, "we worked hard; they didn't, so screw them."

It's all crap. Yeah, there's clearly something to be said for merit, but people have no idea how much luck really factors into it. Did you graduate college or high school in a good or bad economy? In an area with plenty of jobs around? Was your dad an alcoholic who beat the living shit out of you every chance he got? Was your mom addicted to meth? Was your high school's funding cut denying you a decent education? Did you or your parents get sick and have to declare medical bankruptcy? Were your parents able to help pay for college and reduce or eliminate that student loan debt you'll be paying for at least 10 years, if not many more than that...? There's a lot of stuff.

Should you be rewarded for merit: absolutely.
Should you look down on people: not normally.

Agreed. I think I've probably expounded on the matter enough, but since I'm posting anyway I might as well say it without the sarcasm this time: I agree completely.

Thanks.

It's an ancient and unanswerable question: merit or equality. Goes back to Athens. The Polis (City) was about 50,000 people. There were two equally valid ways of looking at things for who got what.

Some said everyone should get things equally (hypocritically excluding slaves) because when the Spartans came knocking, everyone went out to fight them off. The argument very clearly went, "And I bleed less than you for Athena?"
The Spartans' blades were indiscriminate: they killed everyone they could equally, and since they all had a pretty equal chance of dying to defend Athens, it was a compelling argument that everyone got the same treatment and things.

Some said, that's all fine and good, but forget not merit. "The smith not only fights as an equal to you against Sparta, but forges the bronze that might save your life and take a Spartan's. The horse saddler, the mason, the farmer, the shipwright, the scribe and many more do things you cannot do. Without them, there would be no Athens to defend, Athens worth defending, or Athens able to defend itself.  Whatever that means, surely that means something worth some reward, for there would be no reward to give without it."

There is merit to each point and position that has lasted unbroken for over 3,000 years.
Tragically, we've largely forgotten the first position: that of the citizen and equal. Though we've glorified some merit (sometimes even the illusion of merit) and let other merit languish.

[penguinofhonor]

What they're saying, has no relevance whatsoever. It's cheaper to start a factory in China than most other places and further than has no logical connection at all to paying slave wages. There is nothing preventing these companies from paying above slave labor. Except of course, they specifically outsourced to China FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE of cheaper slave labor.... If they wanted to actually pay someone a living wage, then the company could've stayed in the US.

The logic was that, because of the government corruption and bribery required, there is a barrier to starting a business there that allows the currently existing factories to abuse their workers because the free market is being inhibited. It's not right, but you can follow it.

[Truean]

What they're saying, has no relevance whatsoever. It's cheaper to start a factory in China than most other places and further than has no logical connection at all to paying slave wages. There is nothing preventing these companies from paying above slave labor. Except of course, they specifically outsourced to China FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE of cheaper slave labor.... If they wanted to actually pay someone a living wage, then the company could've stayed in the US.

The logic was that, because of the government corruption and bribery required, there is a barrier to starting a business there that allows the currently existing factories to abuse their workers because the free market is being inhibited. It's not right, but you can follow it.

Inconsistent and unreasonable. The turtle asked the snake why it bit him after he was nice enough to give it a ride across the river. Said the snake, "I am a snake and this is what I do. What did you expect?" Of course the snake bit the turtle; that's what they do.

We knew and have known the Chinese were Communists long before we ever thought about moving businesses there. We knew they had a planned economy and not a "Free Market."

We knew they were communists, and don't have a free market. Now complain that they don't have a free market without barriers to entry? "They are communists and this is what they do. What did you expect?" Of course the communists don't have a free market; that's what they do.

That's like building your house in the city dump and complaining it smells like trash.

[RedKing]

I'd argue we've glorified merit because it fits the American mythic ideal. When in fact, we're nowhere near a meritocracy. Tell people that their prosperity is in their own hands (with the implicit corollary that if they're unsuccessful it's their own damn fault), and they won't hate the rich or see the inherent power structures that keep them out. People in general (and Americans in particular) are horrible at understanding probability. We love 'rags-to-riches' stories, because then we can all say "If that guy started out with nothing and is now rich, then I can be too!" without looking at either the magnitude of improbability involved, or the things that guy had to do to get to that point.


@penguinofhonor:
Of course, there's three much bigger reasons that allow Chinese entrepeneurs to exploit their labor forces:

1. The hukou system. This is the "household registration" system that says "Your family lives in X Village in Y District, Z Province. Therefore, so do you. You are not allowed to change your residence without government permission." It's internal immigration control, and not entirely unjustified or oppressive. Without it, hundreds of millions of people would pick up and leave the countryside and head for places like Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Shanghai, to get a piece of the prosperity there. This would utterly overwhelm those cities' infrastructure, housing, sanitation, etc. and leave you with double-digit unemployment in many cities.

The problem is that even with the system, people are willing to violate it. Instead of hundreds of millions, it's tens of millions. These are the folks that wind up as disposable labor. Safety standards are utterly appalling in many industries, for the same reason that it was in the US at the turn of the century: safety gear is expensive, people are a dime a dozen and there's plenty more that'll take that job if you don't. And because these people are "illegal immigrants", their options for recourse with the authorities are highly limited. Being caught as a hukou violator means deportation back to your village and can result in a fine which, while modest by urban standards, could be a few months' income for rural families. So they're left at the mercy of their employers for the most part.

2. Government corruption. But not in the way you describe. Calling in some guanxi to get your application through the red tape is more of an annoyance than anything, not a terrible hindrance to entrepeneurship. The bigger problem is that local bureaucrats often develop partnerships with local entrepeneurs, which then means that even if the workers are legal residents and/or decide its worth risking deportation to bring abuses to the authorities, the authorities are likely to be in collusion with the factory owners and turn a blind eye or even use government resources like the police to harass workers into silence.

3. Business competition. Competition is supposed to be good for the market and (in theory) for consumers, but nobody ever said it was good for workers. And Chinese domestic competition is insanely fierce. You'd think that the pie would be big enough to support multiple companies in any sector, but the result is that everyone's market share is so tiny that they're constantly fighting for turf. I'll never forget coming out of the main airport in Beijing, trying to find the cheapest cab out of the fifty or so cab drivers waiting around, and seeing some of their "hawkers" (the drivers don't have time to find customers and negotiate fares, so they have a colleague who runs around and pitches their services to every haggard traveller they can find) get into fist-fights over a customer. In manufacturing, competition means shaving profit margins down to the bone. One way of doing this is paying shit for wages and cutting corners on worker safety (and product safety).


I've said it before, and I'll say it again: China is not Communist (at least in the SEZ's on the coast), it's laissez-faire capitalism cranked up to 11. With all of the atrocious worker conditions and a growing resentment of the monumental class divide between the uber-wealthy and the average workers....China may have the ironic fate of being swept by *another* socialist revolution.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't think there's very much that the West can actually feasibly do for China other than to back their revolution when it finally comes to pass. Hopefully for the world economy it will be a revolution in the same vein of the USSR's major reforms leading to its end.

Ultimately, the only people who can really help the Chinese are the Chinese.

[Truean]

Yup, to Redking and Metal Slime Hunt. Note, I was disproving "logic" by assuming it was all true by giving them the benefit of the doubt in all cases in my last post(s) here.

Sarah Palin, the right wing's golden girl, knew she was carrying a baby with Down's Syndrome and so was able to adequately prepare for what that baby would need. Seems that preparation won't happen in OK state; the doctor will have carte blanche to lie to pregnant women about prenatal testing. "Religious Freedom," what you believe is not the problem, what you believe I should believe is the problem. What happened to "small government?" Wasn't that a buzz phrase of the right wing a while back?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/28/carr.abortion.oklahoma/index.html

It's been mentioned before, but here it is again. Corporations can corrupt and disrupt democracy with bribery; that is free speech. But if a real live person protests peaceably, then that's becoming illegal....
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2012/03/the_anti_protest_bill_signed_by_barack_obama_is_a_quiet_attack_on_free_speech_.html

[fqllve]

Sarah Palin, the right wing's golden girl, knew she was carrying a baby with Down's Syndrome and so was able to adequately prepare for what that baby would need. Seems that preparation won't happen in OK state; the doctor will have carte blanche to lie to pregnant women about prenatal testing. "Religious Freedom," what you believe is not the problem, what you believe I should believe is the problem. What happened to "small government?" Wasn't that a buzz phrase of the right wing a while back?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/28/carr.abortion.oklahoma/index.html

"The Ultra-Progressive state of Oklahoma passed legislation today that allows doctors to withold and even fabricate information about a patient's potentially life-threatening illness if the doctor 'kinda thinks that it may cause the patient to contemplate suicide' according to the wording of HB 4718. We approached state Senator Finkle from the 720th District with questions.

"'A good physician isn't only concerned with the patient's body,' Sen. Finkle said, 'but also the patient's immortal soul. We want doctor's to feel secure when they act in the interest of both these things and believe that this legislation will allow that feeling of security.'"


I can't even begin to comment on Trayvon Martin. I just had a long phone conversation with a friend about it and am basically dead inside.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yes, let doctors make decisions based upon a metaphysical concept that totally lacks any evidence of actual existence and is in fact disputed by what we know about neurology. That's a smart idea. Really.


Well, time for another entry on the "Reasons MetalSlimeHunt Hates MD's List".

[Leafsnail]

It doesn't seem like a reason to hate MDs to me.  It's not even a matter of "bad apples" - it was politicians who got this stupid law on the books.  Although this law is horrible... it somewhat reminds me of the "the military should censor information or the public might want the war stopped" argument that comes up every now and again.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It doesn't seem like a reason to hate MDs to me.

There is no doubt in my mind that they will abuse this law for their own benefit and at cost to their patients. My only solace is that such a law is not passed in my state for the moment.

I have other reasons, but suffice it to say that I hate medical doctors in general.

[Luke_Prowler]

I'm going to have to agree with Leafsnail on this one. This seems less of a problem with MDs than with religious people who are also doctors

[Leafsnail]

There is no doubt in my mind that they will abuse this law for their own benefit and at cost to their patients. My only solace is that such a law is not passed in my state for the moment.

I have other reasons, but suffice it to say that I hate medical doctors in general.

But... this law isn't a reason to hate doctors at all.  If you already hate doctors then it's a reason to be fearful that they will do bad things with it.  Maybe if we hear stories about it consistently being abused (well, to be honest, "used".  Lying to people about their situation was pretty much the intent of this law, afterall) then that would be another reason to hate doctors.  But at the moment it's just "politicians pass really stupid law", and it's only your pre-emptive assumption that gives additional reasons to hate doctors.

[Max White]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-20/palmer-says-green-groups-funded-by-cia/3901920
Ok... This is pretty much the funniest shit in the universe. You guys should love in.
They guy has managed to mistake the AGP (Australian Green Party, better known as 'The greens') for Green Peace, then accused this party of accepting funds from the US CIA in an attempt to undermine the Australian economy and thus help the US economy.
Where to even begin...

[Truean]

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2012/03/private-student-loans-should-be-dischargeable-in-bankruptcy-courts-senator-says.html

It's about time, and let's hope he gets taken seriously, but I doubt it.

Jolly old England had debtor's prisons, but they realized this didn't get anyone paid, cost the king to maintain the prisons and ruined the debtor's lives: triple negative. Everyone lost. Gotten rid of. We got rid of debtor's prisons and gave debtors a "fresh start," because it was useless to penalize them/no one gained anything. Now we have this:

“How in the world did that provision get into the law?” Durbin said. “It was a mystery amendment. We can’t find out who offered it.”

Usually, we know who writes the laws and when we don't, it's kinda shady, because they track that stuff closely. All of my student loans are federal Stafford, non private loans. This measure wouldn't benefit me in the slightest in any scenario and I favor it. Those private loans shouldn't be government insured in any form (and certainly not if the investors want to keep their lovely tax benefits).

What is the point and reason for making PRIVATE student loans protected by the government through bankruptcy law or otherwise? They're already charging over twice what the stafford public loans are in interest. Isn't that enough? Given lender misconduct through misleading students away from cheaper public loan options, should they benefit from their misdeeds? Moreover, are we going to keep denying the reality that there is something seriously wrong with American Higher Education and that there is a huge gap between schooling and employment?

Edicts and Declarations do not practical results make.... How about reform and solution instead of dead weight punishment?