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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1290219 times)

Moghjubar

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6450 on: July 15, 2013, 01:23:04 pm »

The main problem is its muddy enough that there is reasonable doubt that he was indeed using 'self defense', therefore theres no murder.

The second problem is it wasn't considered 'reckless' for some reason, likely stand your ground / other gun laws that encourage vigilantes.  If it wasn't for those, he might have been convicted of manslaughter, then bumped up due to manslaughter against a minor (or whatever other Florida law there is).

As is, we must welcome all the new Batmen from Florida (for now).
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Leafsnail

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6451 on: July 15, 2013, 01:52:06 pm »

Zimmerman didn't actually claim SYG - I think the story he eventually decided on was that he was pinned by Martin, meaning that he couldn't run away and SYG was irrelevant.  It may have encouraged him to chase after Martin in the first place though.
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DWC

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6452 on: July 15, 2013, 02:51:41 pm »

Zimmerman side of the story is that he hunted this boy down and started a fight with him. He then started to lose that fight and so he shot his victim. "Self defense" requires (or should require) that you be the defender, not the aggressor.

I am in favor of the right to defend oneself. I am in favor of the right to use potentially lethal force to do so if defending against a clear and immediate mortal threat. I am in favor of the right to use a firearm in that capacity. But it is plainly evident to me that this case does not qualify.

if z didnt follow the boy, there wouldnt be an issue.
if z stayed in his car, there wouldnt be an issue.
if z didnt confront him, there wouldnt be an issue.
if z followed police instructions, there wouldnt be an issue.
if z followed neighborhood watch policy there wouldnt be an issue.
but he did.
he broke the rules.
he disregarded the police.
he hunted this boy (because i guess its a better word than stalked).
he disregarded his own safety.
he instigated a confrontation.

None of these things he did were strictly illegal. Trayvon broke the law first by attacking Zimmerman, tackled him and was beating his head in on the pavement. That isn't a reasonable response to somebody following you. Trayvon was staying at a house about 70 meters away, going home or asking "why are you following me?" would have been a better course of action. They both overreacted, but only Trayvon broke the law.

It's not against the law to approach somebody in public or follow them around and nobody should be attacked for doing so either.
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Scelly9

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6453 on: July 15, 2013, 02:52:56 pm »

But we don't know that Trayvon attacked first, do we?
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6454 on: July 15, 2013, 02:57:55 pm »

Quote
Trayvon broke the law first by attacking Zimmerman, tackled him and was beating his head in on the pavement.
We don't know that Trayvon broke the law.

I'm pretty sure that had he lived, Trayvon would have safely been able to be found not guilty by virtue of self defense, esp. under the stand your ground law. He had no duty to retreat, and if he felt this armed person following him at night was a threat that might kill him, he'd be pretty much guaranteed to get off.

Essentially, we have a situation where Zimmerman was defending himself from what would most likely be found to be a valid expression of self-defense. We have no idea if he was aggressive or provoked the conflict, if he started pushing or getting agressive with Trayvon, or the actual motive Trayvon had for punching him. We just don't know, and we won't.

I think there's reasonable doubt that Trayvon broke the law any more than Zimmerman did.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 03:02:38 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Nadaka

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6455 on: July 15, 2013, 02:59:09 pm »

They don't have to be against the law. It shows he is the aggressor, not the defender.

And yes. Being hunted, chased and confronted by a large armed man would likely put a real fear of mortal danger in a young man. A fear that justifies action in self defense. Trayvon had the right to defend himself from his attacker by any means necessary.
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DWC

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6456 on: July 15, 2013, 03:15:09 pm »

But we don't know that Trayvon attacked first, do we?

Well, Trayvon just had bruising on one of his knuckles, presumably from hitting Zimmerman. So unless Zimmerman swung at him and missed, it just looks like Trayvon jumped Zimmerman.

They don't have to be against the law. It shows he is the aggressor, not the defender.

And yes. Being hunted, chased and confronted by a large armed man would likely put a real fear of mortal danger in a young man. A fear that justifies action in self defense. Trayvon had the right to defend himself from his attacker by any means necessary.

He wasn't being attacked. Trayvon was walking around in the rain around a house that wasn't his and obviously Trayvon was rather lop-sidedly winning the fist fight and I doubt he knew Zimmerman was armed beforehand. If he was concerned for his safety, his house was about 100 feet away and he had plenty of time to go there while Zimmerman was in his car on the phone with the police.

It's not said if Zimmerman actually said anything to Trayvon or not, but I'd imagine he probably said something rude and confrontational, but we'll never know.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6457 on: July 15, 2013, 03:22:48 pm »

Well, Trayvon just had bruising on one of his knuckles, presumably from hitting Zimmerman. So unless Zimmerman swung at him and missed, it just looks like Trayvon jumped Zimmerman.
Which very well may have happened. It's even possible Zimmerman shoved or otherwise started the physical altercation in a way that wouldn't leave marks, and Trayvon escalated.

He wasn't being attacked. Trayvon was walking around in the rain around a house that wasn't his and obviously Trayvon was rather lop-sidedly winning the fist fight and I doubt he knew Zimmerman was armed beforehand. If he was concerned for his safety, his house was about 100 feet away and he had plenty of time to go there while Zimmerman was in his car on the phone with the police.
Ah, but there is no duty to retreat if it is available in Florida law. Perhaps he was also concerned for the safety of his family? Perhaps he was just pissed off that this guy was following him.

Didn't Zimmerman claim that Trayvon knew he had a weapon, though, and specifically went after Zimmerman with the intent of taking it from him? So that part doesn't really hold up.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6458 on: July 15, 2013, 03:23:46 pm »

Trayvon Martin was heavily schooled in the art of the One Knuckle Death Punch, a fearsome blow that can destroy a person's brain in a single shot.  Zimmerman saw he was preparing for it and had to shoot him dead.
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palsch

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6459 on: July 15, 2013, 03:27:20 pm »

Zimmerman didn't actually claim SYG - I think the story he eventually decided on was that he was pinned by Martin, meaning that he couldn't run away and SYG was irrelevant.  It may have encouraged him to chase after Martin in the first place though.

There are different aspects to SYG.

Zimmerman didn't claim the immunity to prosecution offered under SYG. That would have involved a pre-trial hearing about his self defence claim at which time the case would have likely been dropped. From the law in question;
Quote
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
This is the law that meant Zimmerman wasn't immediately arrested for shooting Martin. It offers such complete immunity that even arresting someone who has definitely shot and killed another person is a huge financial risk for the police department and state in general. Zimmerman didn't claim this, which is a good thing, but...

There are other aspects to the law. Again, looking at the jury instructions there is this part;
Quote
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physicalabilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty.
Italics are explicitly from the SYG legislation. But also notice how the burden of proof rests on the state here.

Self-defence is traditionally an affirmative defence. That is, the defendant has to actively prove - beyond reasonable doubt - that they were acting in self defence.

Under SYG and the related Floridian self-defence laws this is flipped. In this case the state had to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defence. Or rather, that he didn't believe himself to be acting in self defence. That's one hell of a barrier to conviction of anyone with any sort of self-defence claim.

Combine this hurdle with the immunity and financial threats to the police department for prosecuting self-defence cases and you have a disincentive to prosecute these sorts of hard cases, which are the very ones that need resources and effort poured into to try to resolve.

Pile on top of that racial inequalities within the justice system and you can easily get the impression that these laws are a legal license to shoot black people and get away with it.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6460 on: July 15, 2013, 03:41:12 pm »

So really, if Trayvon Martin had knocked Zimmerman out or shot him, under Stand Your Ground the state would have had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin wasn't acting in self defense if they wanted to charge him with anything.  Seems to me that if there are no witnesses to a fight in Florida, either side can shoot the other and expect protection from the law.
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DWC

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6461 on: July 15, 2013, 03:53:38 pm »

Well, Trayvon just had bruising on one of his knuckles, presumably from hitting Zimmerman. So unless Zimmerman swung at him and missed, it just looks like Trayvon jumped Zimmerman.
Which very well may have happened. It's even possible Zimmerman shoved or otherwise started the physical altercation in a way that wouldn't leave marks, and Trayvon escalated.

He wasn't being attacked. Trayvon was walking around in the rain around a house that wasn't his and obviously Trayvon was rather lop-sidedly winning the fist fight and I doubt he knew Zimmerman was armed beforehand. If he was concerned for his safety, his house was about 100 feet away and he had plenty of time to go there while Zimmerman was in his car on the phone with the police.
Ah, but there is no duty to retreat if it is available in Florida law. Perhaps he was also concerned for the safety of his family? Perhaps he was just pissed off that this guy was following him.

Didn't Zimmerman claim that Trayvon knew he had a weapon, though, and specifically went after Zimmerman with the intent of taking it from him? So that part doesn't really hold up.

I imagine he was just pissed off because he was being followed and 'swg' doesn't really apply to fist-fights if Zimmerman just walked up and started talking shit to him. Zimmerman isn't an angel either and he's been in fist fights before. Which just makes me believe the lopsidedness of the fight was because he wasn't expecting one.

One thing they teach you in these conceal carry classes is that you do not get into fist fights if you are going to carry a pistol, either it could be used against you or you will be tempted to use it. So the confrontation already escalated to Trayvon pounding his head in and then you have a pistol there, it possibly escalated to life-and-death of the weapon. I think Zimmerman was probably negligent for keeping it on his person if he did go confront him, but then again maybe he'd be dead if he didn't bring it.

Really, the whole chain of events leading up to Trayvon being shot could have been easily stopped by either one of them with a prudent decision somewhere along the way. Such as it is, there isn't any evidence that Zimmerman broke any laws. If he was found guilty, you'd have a serious breach of faith with the law. I dunno, it's a sad turn of events that could have been prevented.
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Max White

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6462 on: July 16, 2013, 01:07:08 am »

So related to the topic, regardless of the exact series of events, I'm getting very tired, very quickly of some people (Not here) trying to assert that Trayvon was a drug dealer or part of a gang or something. You know what, lets assume that is all true! Lets assume he was a drug dealing gangster who peddled crack, stole cars and abused women. That isn't fucking relevant! I don't care if he kidnapped babies to make into sandwiches, that is an unrelated crime. Nobody deserves an unlawful death at the hands of a vigilante. I would argue that nobody deserves death, but in the US where you have the death sentence that is a much harder line to sell. Point is it wouldn't matter if Trayvon was the spawn of evil itself, you don't get to just shoot somebody. There is a legal system for a reason! To avoid this sort of bullshit.

Sorry, just had to vent a little.

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6463 on: July 16, 2013, 01:10:15 am »

The guy also claimed that Trayvon's death was part of God's plan or something.

I mean seriously?  That's your defense?
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Max White

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6464 on: July 16, 2013, 01:14:01 am »

But you can justify anything if you say it was part of a grand design, right? Right..? Except sending me to jail, that is never part of the plan. Point is when I do something to harm another, it is God's plan, but when somebody does something to harm or inconvenience me it is injustice.
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