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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285930 times)

kaijyuu

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6240 on: July 10, 2013, 01:28:08 pm »

That... So much for protecting churches from the government, I guess? But seriously, that couldn't possible hold up against the constitution/Supreme Court, could it?
Nope. It'll die in court very, very quickly if challenged.

It's just posturing.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6241 on: July 10, 2013, 01:34:58 pm »

So I'm not sure, but it appears the prosecutor would be able to go after a clergy who performed a ceremony for gay people.... Would that apply to something that was not intended to be "marriage" legally? Not sure of this, but I've heard that Unitarian Universalists (UUs) and some other religions seem perfectly fine with performing ceremonies for gay people. Does this imply that the mere act of those ceremonies is now illegal and a criminal offense? I hope not. That sounds suspiciously like the government telling religion what to do by threat of jail, if your religion doesn't mind gays marrying.... Then of course there's that "making it a felony" thing if you're gay, stuff....
I just love the irony of them doing this, when the GOP is constantly pushing the line about how "Big Gay is going to force preachers to marry same-sex couples!" and now they themselves are forcing preachers to not marry same-sex couples.
Well first off, any right, not just free speech, only extends so far as it doesn't impede on other's rights. I'm pretty sure I have a solid precedent for people having a right to not be threatened with violence at least as far as the law goes (just look up what constitutes "assault"). If you feel people don't have the right to be free from threats to be killed and harmed then I don't have much to argue against that since it seems axiomatic.
You don't have any legal right to that. Just threatening someone isn't assault. Assault requires a present and plausible ability to commit one's threats. By definition, one can not assault someone over the internet unless they also can confront them in meatspace, because you can't punch people through the internet.

In these particular cases, the obvious sarcastic rebuttals delivered by the "criminals" are even less legitimate as assault, as they are clearly facetious. If one accepts that sarcasm or clearly false statements are legitimate threats that can constitute assault, then all manner of humor and jest become serious crimes.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 01:37:43 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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RedKing

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6242 on: July 10, 2013, 01:55:22 pm »

You don't have any legal right to that. Just threatening someone isn't assault. Assault requires a present and plausible ability to commit one's threats.

However, consider that in Florida, even being perceived as threatening is legal justification for someone to shoot you and claim self-defense.
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Owlbread

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6243 on: July 10, 2013, 04:27:32 pm »

I think in the UK we treat verbal threats as assault.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6244 on: July 10, 2013, 04:51:43 pm »

I think in the UK we treat verbal threats as assault.
We categorize it as violent crime as well.

Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6245 on: July 10, 2013, 04:53:14 pm »

Well thats just silly.
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Pnx

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6246 on: July 10, 2013, 06:29:13 pm »

It is kind of silly but there's a sort of logic behind it. Essentially the idea is that if someone waves a knife in your face and threatens to stab you, the courts will consider this a violent crime, even if there are no stabbings nor attempted stabbings involved (which I'm sure you'll agree sounds a fairly reasonable practice).
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Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6247 on: July 10, 2013, 06:38:18 pm »

I do wonder how a verbal knife looks like...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6248 on: July 10, 2013, 06:58:37 pm »

It is kind of silly but there's a sort of logic behind it. Essentially the idea is that if someone waves a knife in your face and threatens to stab you, the courts will consider this a violent crime, even if there are no stabbings nor attempted stabbings involved (which I'm sure you'll agree sounds a fairly reasonable practice).
No, by definition violence indicates harmful force, yet there is no force involved.

Descan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6249 on: July 10, 2013, 07:22:22 pm »

So you'd rather someone waving a knife in your face have no consequences?
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6250 on: July 10, 2013, 07:41:53 pm »

Wow, it's almost like that has nothing to do with what he said!

Or are you under the assumption the only crimes we can set up consequences for are violent ones?
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kaijyuu

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6251 on: July 10, 2013, 07:50:26 pm »

I do wonder how a verbal knife looks like...
Somewhat similar to a cutting remark, I'd imagine.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6252 on: July 10, 2013, 08:00:38 pm »

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/10/indiana-gay-marriage-debate-state-laws/2504767/
http://americablog.com/2013/07/indiana-makes-crime-preacher-conduct-gay-marriage.html

.... :(

I don't entirely know what that means and I am afraid to find out It appears Indiana just made it illegal and a crime for clergy who are "solemnizing" gays "marrying." The article suggests that "solemnizing" is something that is done before the actual filing of any license with the county clerk, which is also illegal and a (low level) felony for a gay person to do.... The clergy performing any ceremony could apparently be charged with a misdemeanor?

So I'm not sure, but it appears the prosecutor would be able to go after a clergy who performed a ceremony for gay people.... Would that apply to something that was not intended to be "marriage" legally? Not sure of this, but I've heard that Unitarian Universalists (UUs) and some other religions seem perfectly fine with performing ceremonies for gay people. Does this imply that the mere act of those ceremonies is now illegal and a criminal offense? I hope not. That sounds suspiciously like the government telling religion what to do by threat of jail, if your religion doesn't mind gays marrying.... Then of course there's that "making it a felony" thing if you're gay, stuff....

:( I really don't know what to think of this. One day I would like to find a nice man to be with. Thankfully I do not currently live in Indiana, but.... The notion of these laws catching on is a frightening one.

Yeah, I saw those same links a couple days ago... Didn't know how much they actually represent a change in legal status for gay people here, or how much weight the laws actually carry.  All I could think was "Yup, that's Indiana."  The fundies are powerful here.  They call it the northernmost southern state for good reason.

Having said all that, you've given me the impression many times that I know more people here who are accepting of homosexuality than you seem to in Ohio.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6253 on: July 10, 2013, 08:06:47 pm »

On the bright side, the solemnizing law is almost certainly going to be struck down. It isn't often that something manages to violate both Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech.
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Pnx

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6254 on: July 10, 2013, 08:15:29 pm »

It is kind of silly but there's a sort of logic behind it. Essentially the idea is that if someone waves a knife in your face and threatens to stab you, the courts will consider this a violent crime, even if there are no stabbings nor attempted stabbings involved (which I'm sure you'll agree sounds a fairly reasonable practice).
No, by definition violence indicates harmful force, yet there is no force involved.
Firstly I was claiming this seemed a reasonable practise (or rather I was claiming that Dutchling would probably find it a reasonable practise), I was not claiming it was... how shall I say this, semantically accurate practise.
The same way that if someone was stealing money from a cash register and you called it shoplifting, I'd say that's a reasonable thing to call it even though the definition of shoplifting is by most accounts the theft of goods (money not being typically considered goods).

Secondly, let's actually look at some definitions of violence, since you've apparently decided semantics is so vital to the conversation here.
Quote from: First line of the wikipedia article
Violence is the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against a person

Quote from: Dictionary.com
... an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws

Quote from: Google
Strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

Most definitions I look at seem to include what I described as being violent. So there doesn't even seem to be a basis for arguing semantics here if that was even appropriate.

Quite frankly LW, I think this was an extremely pedantic argument.
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