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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286997 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6135 on: June 23, 2013, 12:26:56 am »

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Ok, I get that, you are talking about ideal utopian values, that I would agree upon, but are not necessarily part of existing societies.
Indeed, I do not think any country embraces the core ideals I'm trying to hammer into this thread right now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yes, it is all about circumstance and context. Or essentially preventing people who already are criminals to commit further crimes.
But you are not stopping criminals, you are making people into criminals. If you want to prevent crime like that, make the punishment capital or for life, or you're only hiding bad words away for another day and progressively making the situation worse and worse.

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Ok that part I partially misunderstood in your first post I think. I would have rated "remove kebab" as a simple call for a boycott of certain products, which I would consider relatively harmless despite racial implications. I also did not recognize the Malcolm X quote, and while I understand that counter-racism is a viable expression for opressed minorities, I don't condone that line of thinking.
You demonstrated my intended point rather well, what was to you a simple boycott of certain products was also used as an offensive slang term. Would you also make illegal 'remove kebab' despite its legitimate meaning? And even if you would say yes, anyone who actually was organizing actual crime would simply use another term, and you would be falling deeper down the slope of gagged language.
Secondly it's not counter-racism, it is just racism. Malcom was racist in his advocacy for black supremacy and his remarks against all white people, and it was a way for him to gain audience, express exactly how he felt and also speak out against racism against black people. And then we also go down into the political correctness part, where racism is viable for minorities and the censorship applies only to the majorities of any social group, creating an inequality of the rights to expression. And it is one thing to be against racism in the spoken word, but then it is also another thing to have the state make it the ultimate thought crime. For example, if one of your acquaintances were to say something bigoted, would you begin saying to them the reasons why they are wrong, or would you call the police?

I'm very much for full freedom of expression in the arts, my concerns probaly are related to crime prevention, as there are in my eyes expressions from certain people that more or less are declarations that a crime is going to begin. As I said before, context is important here, a nazi-educated grandma who says somehing racist can only be partially faulted IMO, while a leader of a neo-nazi group who openly calls for violent actions clearly is likely to just declare that a crime is going to be committed, which should warrant some sort of investigation.
Currently the idea of investigation is 'go to court.' There is a fine line between saying 'kill all x' and 'I am going to kill all x.'
And frankly, I would still support people's rights to say 'I am going to kill all x' because it makes crime so much easier to prevent, whilst also not outlawing humour, especially where textual mediums are concerned and tones of voice cannot be heard.
And last of all you don't fall into viewing people as these groups where 'you won't be sent to prison for x, but not you other people, you certainly will.' You view everyone as equals, following the same laws under the same principles.

XXSockXX

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6136 on: June 23, 2013, 01:09:24 am »

That is an obvious difference, the circumstance. And that is what I believe to be the duty of civic law and society to work against. By making such inflammatory statements illegal, you only serve to turn bigots into criminals who will return to society from imprisonment as criminals, nor will you stop the careless from making these statements and the most important thing of all - you will only worsen their opinions.
Well, there is an educational aspect. If you hear "Jew" used as an insult in Germany today, there is an extremely high chance the person saying it is a (muslim) immigrant. The reason for this is that the old stereotypes have been pretty much wiped from society, not necessarily only by laws, but also by making statements socially unaceptable, basically a mix of public reflection with temporal restricment of free speech. If public reflection alone would have done the job? I doubt it.

You demonstrated my intended point rather well, what was to you a simple boycott of certain products was also used as an offensive slang term. Would you also make illegal 'remove kebab' despite its legitimate meaning? And even if you would say yes, anyone who actually was organizing actual crime would simply use another term, and you would be falling deeper down the slope of gagged language.
Secondly it's not counter-racism, it is just racism. Malcom was racist in his advocacy for black supremacy and his remarks against all white people, and it was a way for him to gain audience, express exactly how he felt and also speak out against racism against black people. And then we also go down into the political correctness part, where racism is viable for minorities and the censorship applies only to the majorities of any social group, creating an inequality of the rights to expression. And it is one thing to be against racism in the spoken word, but then it is also another thing to have the state make it the ultimate thought crime. For example, if one of your acquaintances were to say something bigoted, would you begin saying to them the reasons why they are wrong, or would you call the police?
I'm not easily in favor of banning langauge at all. If there is racism from a minority versus the majority (something that is happening in Germany and only very reluctantly acknowledged by the public), it should be met with the same response as under reversed circumstances, which would be so called hate-crime laws.

Currently the idea of investigation is 'go to court.' There is a fine line between saying 'kill all x' and 'I am going to kill all x.'
And frankly, I would still support people's rights to say 'I am going to kill all x' because it makes crime so much easier to prevent, whilst also not outlawing humour, especially where textual mediums are concerned and tones of voice cannot be heard.
And last of all you don't fall into viewing people as these groups where 'you won't be sent to prison for x, but not you other people, you certainly will.' You view everyone as equals, following the same laws under the same principles.
That again is a context thing. Humour, satire, blasphemy, meaningless empty threats are all irrelevant and should not be subject to any kind of repression. I think law enforcement more or less does have a grip on that, you are not persecuted for publishing the Mohammed cartoons (though you are not protected enough for my taste either), but you may get in trouble if you call for the burning of mosques. (though you may get away with that if you are doing it for satire or on artistic grounds).
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Hiiri

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6137 on: June 23, 2013, 01:39:04 am »

Trying to regulate hate works as well as trying to regulate sex. Psst, it doesn't work.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6138 on: June 23, 2013, 01:47:05 am »

Trying to regulate hate works as well as trying to regulate sex. Psst, it doesn't work.

Except no one is trying to regulate "hate", rather, some of the byproducts of hate.


As for the previous argument, some people do not necessarly believe that virtues are the best way to go about things.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:52:06 am by alexandertnt »
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Criptfeind

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6139 on: June 23, 2013, 01:58:19 am »

Trying to regulate hate works as well as trying to regulate sex. Psst, it doesn't work.

That's a pretty interesting thing to say considering how sex is regulated quite a bit. And certainly no one here would argue that even if the regulation is not 100% effective that it is worthless or should not be regulated.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6140 on: June 23, 2013, 01:58:52 am »

Fuck raw utilitarianism.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Hiiri

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6141 on: June 23, 2013, 02:23:46 am »

Except no one is trying to regulate "hate", rather, some of the byproducts of hate.

Suppressing hateful speech is exactly that. 'Sweep it under a rug and the problem goes away!'. It's worked so well in the past! All it does is victimizes and empowers the hateful parties.

Ps. Sarcasm font.

That's a pretty interesting thing to say considering how sex is regulated quite a bit. And certainly no one here would argue that even if the regulation is not 100% effective that it is worthless or should not be regulated.

No, consenting sex shouldn't be regulated at all. Edit: Nor does suppressing our sexuality work. All it produces are pedophile priests and pregnant teenagers.

Fuck raw utilitarianism.

Fuck the reactionaries!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 02:26:35 am by Hiiri »
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XXSockXX

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6142 on: June 23, 2013, 02:39:00 am »

No, consenting sex shouldn't be regulated at all.
It's the consent part that requires regulation. We could argue about details, but nobody here would disagree that we have to define what consent is and who can consent.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6143 on: June 23, 2013, 02:40:50 am »

Yeah, whata thing, that. So you and me can agree that large swaths of it should be 'okay' and non regulated, but not all of it.

Still a hell of a thing to say when trying to use it as a analogy for speech.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6144 on: June 23, 2013, 02:57:20 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well, there is an educational aspect. If you hear "Jew" used as an insult in Germany today, there is an extremely high chance the person saying it is a (muslim) immigrant. The reason for this is that the old stereotypes have been pretty much wiped from society, not necessarily only by laws, but also by making statements socially unaceptable, basically a mix of public reflection with temporal restricment of free speech. If public reflection alone would have done the job? I doubt it.
Completely "wiped out" by government control of expression, Allowing for 20% of course.
I still believe questioning it is better than repressing it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm not easily in favor of banning langauge at all. If there is racism from a minority versus the majority (something that is happening in Germany and only very reluctantly acknowledged by the public), it should be met with the same response as under reversed circumstances, which would be so called hate-crime laws.
Then you begin equally suppressing everyone, and it really isn't looking like it's worth the cost.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That again is a context thing. Humour, satire, blasphemy, meaningless empty threats are all irrelevant and should not be subject to any kind of repression. I think law enforcement more or less does have a grip on that, you are not persecuted for publishing the Mohammed cartoons (though you are not protected enough for my taste either), but you may get in trouble if you call for the burning of mosques. (though you may get away with that if you are doing it for satire or on artistic grounds).
Holy cow, even blasphemy is illegal.

No, consenting sex shouldn't be regulated at all.
It's the consent part that requires regulation. We could argue about details, but nobody here would disagree that we have to define what consent is and who can consent.
1. Agreement to listen.
2. Anyone capable of acting independently.

Hiiri

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6145 on: June 23, 2013, 02:57:45 am »

I'm saying lust and hate are unavoidable, therefore we should find constructive outlets for these feelings, instead of trying to suppress them. Go ahead, masturbate! Go ahead, speak your mind!


Statement: "We should kill all homosexuals!"

Wrong response: "Silence him!"
Right response: "Why?"
Optional response: "..."
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Criptfeind

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6146 on: June 23, 2013, 03:04:22 am »

How about masturbation in public? Masturbation at someone? How about masturbating, taking a photo of you doing it from the waist down, and then passing it around to people telling them it was your mutual acquaintance?

That last one sorta got away from me just a little bit, but to be honest as well fitting as this sex analogy is, it sadly just doesn't fit everything.
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Steelmagic

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6147 on: June 23, 2013, 03:06:34 am »

How about masturbating, taking a photo of you doing it from the waist down, and then passing it around to people telling them it was your mutual acquaintance?.
That is almost frighteningly descriptive.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6148 on: June 23, 2013, 03:07:12 am »

You're welcome.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6149 on: June 23, 2013, 03:10:25 am »

How about masturbation in public? Masturbation at someone? How about masturbating, taking a photo of you doing it from the waist down, and then passing it around to people telling them it was your mutual acquaintance?

That last one sorta got away from me just a little bit, but to be honest as well fitting as this sex analogy is, it sadly just doesn't fit everything.
1. Does the public consent?
2. Do they consent?
3. Do they consent?
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