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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286102 times)

GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5190 on: March 25, 2013, 02:34:44 am »

HAHA, HAVE AT YE, DIRTY INSTINCT-LOVING HOOLIGANS!

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but some have to learn
pointing out, you just shot yourself in the foot there.

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Eating is a complex behavior
If working your gabbing muscles and swallowing is a complex unlearned behavior, you're still foiled by Gandhi.

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they know how to walk from birth
I suspect they're built better for it than we are at the time.

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as opposed to human babies
Who learn it..

Notice how 'human instincts' in the wiki page are actually under the page 'primitive reflexes'. Hmm.

Looking at documentary, but foreword: documentary doesn't mean 100% iron-clad sciency* truth.
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Owlbread

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5191 on: March 25, 2013, 02:35:26 am »

The way some people talk about this forum in the Upper and Lower way makes us seem like Brittany or something.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5192 on: March 25, 2013, 02:36:48 am »

What do you mean, SOME PEOPLE?
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Owlbread

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5193 on: March 25, 2013, 02:39:56 am »

What do you mean, SOME PEOPLE?

I never like to name names but Descan, SalmonGod, freeformschooler etc.

You know, some of your kind. God damned Lower Forum snobs. No respect for the first people. We aborigines get no respect.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:43:27 am by Owlbread »
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Devling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5194 on: March 25, 2013, 02:42:00 am »

Seriously, are we fucking reverse aristocrats?

(The upper forums refers to all the stuff dealing with DF right?)
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alexandertnt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5195 on: March 25, 2013, 02:42:43 am »

Nor does it being an article on the Wikipedia.

Plus the article mixes the use of the word reflex and instinct. It makes me think that perhaps the two are similar enough to be interchangable. It would suggest that attempting to label behaviours that appear instinctive as only reflex behaviours is some sort of not true scotman, where its less about the actual behaviour and generally accepted scientific fact, and more about feeling squirmy about the idea of having instincts.

The way some people talk about this forum in the Upper and Lower way makes us seem like Brittany or something.

What is this Upper and Lower forum people speak of?
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5196 on: March 25, 2013, 02:51:57 am »

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What is this Upper and Lower forum people speak of?
I think they mean the scrollbar

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aborigine upstartiness
ha, I'm actually a rather recent trickle-down. So I'll just have to beg your pardon.

Wait, are we talking about the wiki article or not?
If so: notice the 'instincts' link to the reflexes page. First line of the reflex page:
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Primitive reflexes are reflex actions originating in the central nervous system that are exhibited by normal infants, but not neurologically intact adults, in response to particular stimuli

If not, which are we talking about? Just polished off that documentary..they including things like sense of taste & fight or flight as instincts. Those most certainly aren't complex behaviors.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:04:43 am by GrizzlyAdamz »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5197 on: March 25, 2013, 02:54:18 am »

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The way we live today is really completely UNnatural, as we have plenty of anthropological proof that the conceptual foundations that civilization functions on, such as property, are completely alien to indigenous ways of life, which as I mentioned before is how the first 98% of human history was lived.  Civilization developed in certain ways according to changes in circumstances, not according to some fact of human nature.

This is simply not true. Many animals form "pacts" and attack other opposing pacts. These pacts are often dominated by an individual that has power over the rest. Birds construct nests which they claim as property and defend from other birds.

We are natural animals, and anything we do can be considered part of nature in the same way birds build nests. So our societies, cities etc are in no way contradictory to nature. Declaring anything to be unnatural is not an argument.

A bird's nest is not property, it's possession.  There are plenty of animals that recognize possession, but I've never heard a case for any that recognizes property. 

Also, though it's not exactly relevant to the point you're contesting, it's arguable whether animals with social hierarchies express their authority in ways that are analogous to human society.  "I eat first and get first choice of mates" is a pretty far cry from "I bomb you anonymously from hundreds of miles away because your appearance and location indicates you may hold thoughts I disagree with."

And I wasn't making an appeal to nature.  I was heading off the argument that gets brought up every time that civilization as we know it is a product of human nature.

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but we know what happened to Aaron Schwartz when he tried to download an academic database for free distribution.

By freely distributing this information, you have possibly allowed another country to further increase their control and restrict your freedom. Whilst I believe in free speech etc, this is not such an unreasonable viewpoint to have, and it is not a one-sided debate.

So restrict Aaron Schwartz's freedom, or risk having your freedom diminished. Because external influences are something that any anarchy could not ignore.

For the record, I am trying to present situations where anarchy would not work. Where limiting someones freedom is simply not a choice and people will have to have their freedom limited in some form and someone is going to have to make that decision. There are quite a number of these situations.

On the other hand, a more educated populace is more resistant to propaganda and less likely to behave irrationally, so less likely to be dangerous.  It doesn't seem to me like academia recognizes borders much these days anyway.  International teams of scientists from all developed countries routinely collaborate on research, and students travel to different countries to study all the time.


Breastfeeding:  Lots of babies are really, really bad at it.  Like it can take half an hour to get them to latch on for the first couple weeks bad at it.  It's really common.

And I am not one of those people who is elitist towards the upper forums.  I think they're fine.  They're definitely a separate thing from the lower forums.  There's just some behavior up there that wouldn't survive down here because it would be seen as childish or bad taste, and serious discussions that do pop up tend to be less well-reasoned and moderate in tone.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:58:56 am by SalmonGod »
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Devling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5198 on: March 25, 2013, 02:58:02 am »

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On the other hand, a more educated populace is more resistant to propaganda and less likely to behave irrationally, so less likely to be dangerous

"Lie my teacher told me" would disagree.
Educated people tend to favor which ever action the goverment is currently taking, mostly because education is propaganda.
Whether this is intentional, and to what degree, is up for debate.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5199 on: March 25, 2013, 03:04:08 am »

I acknowledged this much earlier in the discussion.

School isn't inherently a good thing, and can be enforced for the wrong reasons.

And anyway, I meant educated in pretty much the exact opposite way that you're describing.  Educated can just mean "knowledgeable", without having to mean "has a government issued diploma."  I made a pin back when I was trapped in a horrible school system and wore it around on my backpack that said "School sucks, Education rules".
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

lordcooper

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5200 on: March 25, 2013, 03:05:20 am »

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On the other hand, a more educated populace is more resistant to propaganda and less likely to behave irrationally, so less likely to be dangerous

"Lie my teacher told me" would disagree.
Educated people tend to favor which ever action the goverment is currently taking, mostly because education is propaganda.
Whether this is intentional, and to what degree, is up for debate.

This is why students are never involved in any form of protest.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5201 on: March 25, 2013, 03:44:52 am »

@salmon

I'm likely losing focus due to the time here, but I'm starting to feel like I'm countering points without a coherent message. Fyi.

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without having to mean "has a government issued diploma."
But why was a formal education system put in place? Why do we have diplomas?
These are there to protect people from fraud- snakeoil salesmen that rob the gullible or trusting of their savings, claiming false wisdom and backing it up with believable confidence & showmanship.
You said (I assume when met with an inescapable weakness of 'true anarchy') you don't think anarchy is inherently opposed to a government-like organization, so I've gotta ask...in pm. Woo calm & cool thread.


I'm tired and rambling, think I'll call this post a night.
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5202 on: March 25, 2013, 03:59:07 am »

The problem with that idea that SalmonGod got flustered because he was confronted with your "true anarchy", is that this "true anarchy" is something YOU made up, not a part of what's called "Anarchist political theory".

So any weakness with "true anarchy", which is something only you defined, is a straw-man argument.

I'm guessing this "true anarchy" is defined as people running around like headless chickens, going crazy and shit.

I could make the same anti-Christian argument by painting "true Christians" as WBC-type people.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:01:34 am by Reelya »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5203 on: March 25, 2013, 04:23:58 am »

I'm guessing this "true anarchy" is defined as people running around like headless chickens, going crazy and shit.

Sadly, this is the average person's immediate mental image upon hearing the word anarchy.  It's rare to have a conversation on the subject that doesn't spend the first half explaining "Would you behave like that?  Yes?  What's wrong with you?  No?  Then why do you believe everyone else would?"
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alexandertnt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #5204 on: March 25, 2013, 04:39:36 am »

I'm guessing this "true anarchy" is defined as people running around like headless chickens, going crazy and shit.

Sadly, this is the average person's immediate mental image upon hearing the word anarchy.  It's rare to have a conversation on the subject that doesn't spend the first half explaining "Would you behave like that?  Yes?  What's wrong with you?  No?  Then why do you believe everyone else would?"

I hope I have not sounded like that... (I am viewing anarchy as something where people function independently, and do not force each other to do anything, and everything else is up in the air)

The problem with that idea that SalmonGod got flustered because he was confronted with your "true anarchy", is that this "true anarchy" is something YOU made up, not a part of what's called "Anarchist political theory".

I believe that true anarchy was used here to highlight that some of SalmonGod's ideas are infact not part of whats called the "Anarchist political theory" and concepts are being added ad-hoc (If that is actually true or not, I am not going to comment on). In reality advocating a singular political theory is silly for this reason - people will just redefine it to suit them (hence why the definitions of these theories is in constant flux).

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And anyway, I meant educated in pretty much the exact opposite way that you're describing.  Educated can just mean "knowledgeable", without having to mean "has a government issued diploma."  I made a pin back when I was trapped in a horrible school system and wore it around on my backpack that said "School sucks, Education rules".

Teach yourself? Be taught by a non-accredited person? If you did that it is unlikely anyone would trust you to be able to do your job though (a fair heuristic to apply, given that someone with a trusted diploma can probably do the job better than someone who just claims they can).

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"I eat first and get first choice of mates" is a pretty far cry from "I bomb you anonymously from hundreds of miles away because your appearance and location indicates you may hold thoughts I disagree with."

What of the situation where the bombing took place in order to prevent a mass supression of freedom (say, that persons thoughts were of invading your country and enslaving everyone, and they potentially had the resources to do it)? War is far more complicated than you make it out to be, more than "I disagree with you".

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Breastfeeding:  Lots of babies are really, really bad at it.  Like it can take half an hour to get them to latch on for the first couple weeks bad at it.  It's really common.

Have you seen a new-born lamb try to walk :P
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!
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