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[Dutchling]

We clone Native Americans and put them in camps in which they are part of some sort of reality tv* for the rest of their lives?

*would there honestly be any potential scientific use for observing Neanderthals living alongside a bunch of Siberians folks? I understand cloning, but apart from that...

No, if you'd been reading what we were saying earlier on carefully you'd know that the Neanderthals would not be held anywhere against their will, or used for things against their will.

Then you would either not tell them anything about the outside world (that or blatant propaganda) or the experiment will fail pretty soon. You really think they are gonna stay in friggin' Siberia without their family / cultural values/ whatever holding them there?

[Owlbread]

Then you would either not tell them anything about the outside world (that or blatant propaganda) or the experiment will fail pretty soon. You really think they are gonna stay in friggin' Siberia without their family / cultural values/ whatever holding them there?

Oh but we would tell them everything, provided they could understand us. The experiment would actually continue if they entered our society. It would just go in a different direction. The thing is though that the Neanderthalers really need to understand exactly what they're going into before they make that decision; they're the architects of their own destiny.

[Dutchling]

What if they don't want to continue the experiment?

[Owlbread]

What if they don't want to continue the experiment?

The experiment would involve monitoring them to see how they do in our society/trying to help them integrate etc. If they don't want to continue the experiment (I presume you mean cutting off contact with us and not being studied anymore) then that's fine, that's their choice and they have a right to it.

[Dutchling]

Sounds like a failed experiment to me.

[Owlbread]

Sounds like a failed experiment to me.

The experiment would only fail if we didn't learn anything; believe me, we would.

[PanH]

Just a few things about Neanderthal :

Neanderthal are not Homo Sapiens. They are an independant (the only reason they can be considered Homo Sapiens is interbreeding, which is an hypothesis). In fact, they evolved from a way earlier Homo (which is unknown). Neanderthals are not our ancestors (except a bit due to interbreeding). However, we have common ancestors with them.
In terms of brain size, they are considered more intelligent than Homo Sapiens, from 1500 to 1750cm3 against an average of 1300cm3. They also have some primates characteristics, which would make them extremely recognizable (notably the face).

[Dutchling]

I'd probably support this anyway because of 1) Cloning and 2) bringing an extinct species back to life.

[RedKing]

One of the things I keep seeing is "with their consent". How are you going to ascertain that consent, especially if they prove incapable of learning language?

If one wanders out of the facility, how do you distinguish between exploratory wandering and a desire to leave?
I mean, children are just naturally going to want to go places they're not supposed to and in that case it's ethical to confine them without consent. Does that mean we hold them regardless of what they want until they're 18 (or whatever we determine to be "age of consent" for Neanderthals?)

You mention their "tracking skills". You have to remember that this isn't going to be like pulling a small tribe of Neanderthals through a time portal. They're going to have literally NO culture other than what we teach them. They'll be no better at tracking caribou than I am. They might learn some from these hypothetical Yakuts, but that brings up another interesting quandry -- what happens when a Yakut and a Neanderthal eventually mate? There is a good bit of evidence that Homo sapiens neandertal could successfully interbreed with Homo sapiens sapiens. What do you call the offspring? What legal rights does he/she have? Does it become part of your "program" group, or part of the Yakut tribe?



EDIT: Note that larger brain doesn't necessarily equate to higher intelligence.  Sperm whales have a 7kg brain, the largest in the animal kingdom.
Shrews have the largest brain as a ratio-to-mass, nearly 10% of their body weight.

[10ebbor10]

Brain size doesn't determine intelligence. There are serious difference between homo sapiens and homo Neanderthalis brain layout. For example, as deducted from skull layout, the homo Neanderthalis has only a very limited capability for abstract thinking. (Assuming their brain fuctions are in the same place as ours).

However, keep in mind that we can never have a pure Homo neanderthallis. Whatever we clone will most likely be some sort of hybrid, because we will need to use human Dna (maybe even ape Dna, if laws involving human cloning interfere) to patch their Dna up.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We have a complete Neanderthal genome, ebbor. There have been bones found with (relatively) undamaged marrow. Neanderthal lived close enough to our time that some of the DNA has not been degraded.

In any case: if, if, we chose to do this, it has to be done without segregation from the start. No facilities, no camps, no reservations. They're either with our society or we leave them dead. Nothing else is morally acceptable.

[Moghjubar]

Frog DNA shall be used, of course. Useful for everything!  Why stop at Neanderthals when you can make Neaderfrogs!

[10ebbor10]

On the question of potentially cloning a Neanderthal, Pääbo commented, "Starting from the DNA extracted from a fossil, it is and will remain impossible."

That's from the guy who leads the analysing team. While we do have the entire/ most of the genome,  we don't have any completely intact pieces. We just have a lot of fairly small fragments, which we have managed to put together a bit. But in essence, it's a puzzle. Or more accuratly, a thousand similair puzzels thrown together, with several pieces damaged or missing, and only a very vague idea of the cover phote.

And really, Neaderthalers won't be able to fit in. As said before, stuff hints that they aren't really capable of abstract thought. Meaning that anything from simple mathematics, to the understanding of our entire societal system, to a large part of communication will be entirely impossible for them.

[PanH]

Brain size doesn't determine intelligence.

It's still the only measure that can be used.
Either you define intelligence as something abstract, and then you have no means of comparing (and then no brain layout either), either you measure it scientifically, with brain size.
While "intelligence" isn't maybe the good word (or the opposite), that's how you measure it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

And really, Neaderthalers won't be able to fit in. As said before, stuff hints that they aren't really capable of abstract thought. Meaning that anything from simple mathematics, to the understanding of our entire societal system, to a large part of communication will be entirely impossible for them.

Stuff doesn't hint at shit. We don't know anything about the actual thought process of Neanderthals. Skull shape is irrelevant. We can barely discern how our own brains work through stuff, and that's with billions of case studies all around us. Intellect is impossible to measure without having a living member of the species, especially with an unambiguously sapient species like the Neanderthals.