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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1289697 times)

Rolepgeek

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11295 on: January 10, 2016, 11:20:11 am »

Also, the bit about 'those other cultures need to deal with it on their own' kinda makes me nervous. Just because someone lives in a different culture and holds different values doesn't mean they don't have value. And when people are being abused and oppressed, well...'white man's burden' is bullshit, but 'rich people's duty' is not. When you're better off, whether as a person, a country, or a company, I think it's your duty to help people who are worse off than you, when you can afford it. And there's plenty of times when it can be afforded.
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Sheb

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11296 on: January 10, 2016, 11:24:06 am »

Yeah, when reading your post Covenant, I cannot help but shake the feeling that you first decided you wanted to get rid of migrants, and then proceeded to find a reason to justify your opinion. Europe can deal with a bunch of lout youth. Catch them, revoke their refugees status, deport them (and keep biometric data so they don't come back under another name after "loosing" their passport).

Saying that the only way for a continent of 500m to tackle a few hundred or thousands gropers is to drastically reduce the flow of all refugees show a lack of faith in our own capacities that border on the ridiculous. Taking care of those refugees is something that will require some effort, and maybe the part about dealing with the assholes that exist in any population in various numbers is something our governments didn't spend enough time thinking about. But we're going to get there, and we'll do it. Wir schaffen es.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:54:04 am by Sheb »
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11297 on: January 10, 2016, 11:32:00 am »

That you got anything like "going ful Madagascar" from his posts just bares that you aren't reading his posts but have instead predemt what his standpoint are and are arguing against your own strawman.
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Sheb

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11298 on: January 10, 2016, 11:45:13 am »

Gosh, a man really cannot make use of hyperbole in this thread.  :P

Well, feel free to replace it by "dramatically reducing the flow of migrants".
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11299 on: January 10, 2016, 11:51:38 am »

There's using hyperbole, and then there's engaging in hyperbole that seeks to mischaracterise the argument in a way that paints anyone who is critical of Europe's current immigration policies as super racist.
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Sheb

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11300 on: January 10, 2016, 11:54:56 am »

It wasn't my intention, I was just getting a bit emotional when writing that. To avoid confusion, I edited it.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11301 on: January 10, 2016, 12:05:16 pm »

In practical terms of improving matters, there are too many things to be done to be listed here in anything like a complete manner, and most of them are very obvious.
Obvious solutions are obvious to everyone, but not necessarily practical to anyone.

Things like prioritising certain groups (like the persecuted Yazidis, who are being pushed to extinction). Only taking refugees from the actual refugee camps in Syria and neighbouring countries, not letting in just anyone who rocks up at the front door. Taking in more women and children, as opposed to the nearly 80% of adult men that it's been so far. A big one - taking in much, much smaller numbers. If you pick up one person and plonk them down in the middle of a larger group, they'll assimilate into the group. If you pick up a million people at once, they don't need to assimilate, and so they won't.
Yeah, these are bloody brilliant ideas in theory, but why aren't the EU countries implementing them right now? After all, the hyper-progressive wonderland of Canadia is gleefully "doin' it" without being called raycis or sexxis, so why can't we? Let's take maple leaf out of their book then, shall we?

Here's a bit from their humanitarian resettlement policy:
Quote
To come to Canada as a refugee, you must be:

   - referred by the United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR) or another designated referral organization, or
   - be sponsored by a private sponsorship group.

You cannot apply directly for resettlement to Canada at any embassy or a visa office.

And here's an important tidbit from another page:
Quote
No one can guarantee that you will get a visa to come to Canada.

In other words, there are practically two ways to get from the Middle East to Canada as an asylum seeker: (1) by applying directly from the refugee camps (via UNHCR or some other humanitarian organization), or (2) by swimming across the Atlantic. On our continent, however, the refugees only have to walk to the nearest EU border to claim asylum, or pay a few thousand € to some shady fucker to smuggle them to their preferred EU country like a parcel of contraband. Geographical distance just might have something to do with the fact that Canada has accepted a total of 13,735 refugees so far, whereas the EU is swamped with a "gorillion billion, most of whom aren't even Syrian."

The funny thing is that pretty much everyone (myself included) agrees that it would be reasonable to prefer women and families over unmarried men in the asylum procedure, but because of the UN Refugee Convention and the principle of non-refoulement, that kind of discrimination has to be carried out pre-emptively before the people have arrived at our doorstep. Canada and EU have both ratified the same treaties, but only the latter has to bear the brunt of a refugee crisis in actuality. Unless the EU decides to turn the UN treaties into toilet paper, our governments are legally obligated to process all applications regardless of the applicant's age or gender. And if all the eligible applicants showing up at our borders happen to be male... welp, geography is just unfair.

What else? Stronger border controls. Actually enforcing the old rules; that refugees have to settle in the first country they come to, they can't choose to go to wherever because it has a nicer welfare system. Being somewhat realistic about people's age, rather than taking in men clearly in their 30's and classifying them as 'unaccompanied child' simply because they've been told to say they're 14. Not admitting anyone who has been convicted of any crime. Not admitting anyone who has no paperwork whatsoever without a very good, exceptional reason as to why they have no paperwork.
These are also great ideas, but did you know that the authorities are already trying to do exactly what you propose? Enforcing Dublin III has never worked very well in practice, and my guess is that it won't work until every individual entering the EU (legally or illegally) can be kept under constant digital/biometric surveillance for the duration of their stay. Which would be never. Right now the problem is that Dublin III is often enforced selectively and/or indiscriminately, and the member countries end up playing ping-pong with the refugees just like in the good old days before Dublin regulations.

You're right about the current system being sloppy and broken all across the board, but how should we go about fixing it? Cross-examination is the only practical method available to the authorities at the moment, but it's a hugely time-consuming and ineffective way to sort out an unexpected crowd of a million paperless strangers from god knows where. With the present constraints on time and human resources, the interviewers have had serious trouble verifying even the basic facts about their interviewees, never mind doing detailed background checks on every inconspicuous bloke with a highly plausible story. Hiring more interviewers and raising the budgets of police and intelligence departments certainly wouldn't hurt, but weren't we going to do that anyway?

(Also, passports and similar documents are not reliable signs of a bona fide refugee, because such things are often: (a) forged, (b) stolen, (c) sent in the mail to prevent them from being stolen, (d) stolen from the mail, and (e) all of the above plus a few laps 'round the globe in some druglord's pocket. What's more, denying someone asylum for not having the appropriate documents sounds kinda skeevy from the perspective of non-refoulement... I don't know. :/)

What comes to "closing the borders," well, we're getting there, for what it's worth. Schengen is on its last leg, and Sweden has already introduced "carrier's responsibility" for trains and buses on the Öresund bridge, which, incidentally, put a stop to the influx of migrants into Finland via Sweden. But now that our western border is "closed," so to speak, the asylum seekers are starting to worm their way into Finland over the eastern border, via Russia. Which is hardly surprising. Because, you know, smugglers and refugees and terrist infiltrators don't particularly care whether an arbitrary state border is "open" or "closed" – they'll find a way.

EDIT:
Quote from: Antsan
Also these people are already here. It's not like they might become our problem sometime in the future, they're our problem now, with all the culture and everything else they brought with them.
Yeah. No point obsessing over imaginary borders at this point, because "the horses have bolted," as Grandpa Whispers used to say.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:51:35 pm by SirQuiamus »
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scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11302 on: January 10, 2016, 12:42:39 pm »

It wasn't my intention, I was just getting a bit emotional when writing that. To avoid confusion, I edited it.

Goddammit Sheb. Sometimes you're just more reasonable than the internet deserves :P
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11303 on: January 10, 2016, 12:57:31 pm »

I do not know if I would consider 'liberal' and 'progressive' the same thing. Progressives are more like post-modern idealism applied legal and socially to coerce society in a specific direction, while liberalism is more modernist secular humanism about personal freedom and liberty in relation to law and the state.

imho there are more differences between progressives and liberals than progressive/liberal and conservative.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:59:58 pm by k33n »
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martinuzz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11304 on: January 10, 2016, 01:04:15 pm »

Especially in Europe, where 'liberal' has a different meaning than in the US. Best example is that what the US calls 'neo-conservative', the EU calls 'neo-liberal'
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 01:10:19 pm by martinuzz »
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11305 on: January 10, 2016, 01:08:07 pm »

Especially in Europe, where 'liberal' has a different meaning then in the US. Best example is that what the US calls 'neo-conservative', the EU calls 'neo-liberal'

And in Canada, where I hail. However - I think it is very relevant in the States as well, as several Progressive movements and organizations have developed that appear to have very little sympathy with liberalism.
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Sheb

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11306 on: January 10, 2016, 01:41:49 pm »


I've explained my feelings and the reasons behind them in detail, and if you have a sneaky suspicion that I might actually just be a big ol' racist then I suspect there's little I can do to change your mind on the matter one way or the other.

Also, 'Europe can deal with a bunch of lout youth'. I wonder if you'd be saying that if it were your sister, or daughter, or even yourself who was one of the women raped on NYE. If it were me or mine, I'd probably say that helping the refugees wasn't worth such a price.

As it is, what I am saying is that the current balance isn't right. And that the increased security we would get from tighter controls and reduced numbers is, to me, worth the sadness of a higher number of genuine refugees not getting the help they need.

I'm not in your head, so I of course can't judge your motives, but that was the impression you post gave me. I guess your clarification does dispel some of that, although I still thing you're a terrible person, just of the selfish rather than racist kind. :p

More to the point, Germany suffers from something like 30 rapes a day (With the errata that data on rape are notably fuzzy because of widespread underreporting). When I see a group such as Pegida that only start to give a shit the moment they can blame an Arab for it, and offer "solutions" that "regretfully" force them to close the borders to refugees and only address the small subset of sexual assault caused by refugees and other migrant, I have a really hard time believing they are sincerely interested in women's welfare.

Of course, I don't know you and I haven't talked to you before on these threads, so it's wrong of me to assume you show the same kind of hypocrisy. Let's just say that I had a rough day, I'll apologize and leave it at that.

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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11307 on: January 10, 2016, 01:57:53 pm »


I've explained my feelings and the reasons behind them in detail, and if you have a sneaky suspicion that I might actually just be a big ol' racist then I suspect there's little I can do to change your mind on the matter one way or the other.

Also, 'Europe can deal with a bunch of lout youth'. I wonder if you'd be saying that if it were your sister, or daughter, or even yourself who was one of the women raped on NYE. If it were me or mine, I'd probably say that helping the refugees wasn't worth such a price.

As it is, what I am saying is that the current balance isn't right. And that the increased security we would get from tighter controls and reduced numbers is, to me, worth the sadness of a higher number of genuine refugees not getting the help they need.

I'm not in your head, so I of course can't judge your motives, but that was the impression you post gave me. I guess your clarification does dispel some of that, although I still thing you're a terrible person, just of the selfish rather than racist kind. :p

More to the point, Germany suffers from something like 30 rapes a day (With the errata that data on rape are notably fuzzy because of widespread underreporting). When I see a group such as Pegida that only start to give a shit the moment they can blame an Arab for it, and offer "solutions" that "regretfully" force them to close the borders to refugees and only address the small subset of sexual assault caused by refugees and other migrant, I have a really hard time believing they are sincerely interested in women's welfare.

Of course, I don't know you and I haven't talked to you before on these threads, so it's wrong of me to assume you show the same kind of hypocrisy. Let's just say that I had a rough day, I'll apologize and leave it at that.

Are you an Islamist? Because you are using Islamist theories when you treat religion as a race or an unalterable destiny.
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11308 on: January 10, 2016, 01:58:26 pm »

duplicate
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11309 on: January 10, 2016, 02:09:34 pm »

Sheb... did not mention religion at all in the post you quoted.
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