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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1285857 times)

UXLZ

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10485 on: July 02, 2015, 10:10:15 am »

I think that the reason that they're often ignored is because, seemingly to me at least, they are all rather... Terrible.

Firstly is demonstrably false because of the presence of homosexuality in the natural kingdom. Are lions capitalist?

Second is ridiculous because even if homosexual couples were disallowed that doesn't mean that those who otherwise would have been in a homosexual couple will actually breed.
Also, yeah, science. Plus, it's not like it's impossible for homosexual couples to produce offspring. Just not with each other. It may even increase the birth rates because of those couples choosing to get IVFs or carrier mothers or some such rather than just staying single and having no children through any matter of course.

What about those raised by single parents? Should we make divorce illegal before a child is of a certain age?

Yeah, seems like a correlation =/= causation situation, here.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10486 on: July 02, 2015, 10:11:17 am »

Should we make divorce illegal before a child is of a certain age?

solid question, do discuss
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Tiruin

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10487 on: July 02, 2015, 10:24:17 am »

Another one is that homosexual parents are unable to provide the same environment that a heterosexual couple provides to children, and thus a homosexual couple's child would have developmental problems. Some say that the lack of proper male and female role models in parents is the main cause of gender dysphoria, but thats a really shady argument IMO.
This is totally disproven, btw. :P I'm curious why its still an argument though.

As in...I'm curious why such arguments still hold validity in different places.

But I'm more curious about Divorce and all ._. Please discuss.
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TempAcc

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10488 on: July 02, 2015, 10:33:54 am »

Should we make divorce illegal before a child is of a certain age?

solid question, do discuss

I wouldn't recommend it, unless we can somehow guarantee the resulting emotional problems wont affect the children. Forcing people to stay together only ever caused problems, and an unsteady and turbulent couple is sure to cause problems for their children. An incomplete family is better then a turbulent one.

As a lawyer I have always observed this to be true, since a good chunk of my divorce related clients are usualy people who "tried to stay togheder for the sake of the children" but only ended up causing more problems for themselves and their children. Of course, there are those that manage to do this without affecting their children, but they're a remarkable minority.

It doesnt change the fact that divorce and unsteady parents will always be harmful to a child's development. Of course, this doesnt imply that homosexual couples are unsteady or prone to divorce, either.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 10:35:29 am by TempAcc »
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scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10489 on: July 02, 2015, 11:47:18 am »

Are lions capitalist?

Didn't you see the Lionking? Hell yeah they are :P
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Rolan7

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10490 on: July 02, 2015, 11:51:30 am »

I'm probably too close to the issue to comment logically, but the idea of forcing unhappy parents to stay together longer makes me very uneasy.  The separation was awful in its own multitude of ways, but on the whole it was superior to what came before.  And that's just from my perspective, not theirs.
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scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10491 on: July 02, 2015, 11:52:28 am »

Edit: mistakepost.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 12:51:12 pm by scriver »
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10492 on: July 02, 2015, 12:31:56 pm »

Though I don't know that any of those activities are unique to same-sex couples, and the problems seemed minor and victimless.
It's... pretty close to impossible for any act of that nature to be unique to same-sex couples (though there are some people that like to think pegging and whatnot in a heterosexual relationship doesn't exist. Protip: They're wrong.). Without going into details, I can think of only one thing that even comes close (well, without getting into some really weird shit that mostly doesn't actually happen, now that I think about it... that brings the count up to two or three, maybe), and that's non-penetrative. Everything else, well, we have the most amazing peripherals these days that cover any possible gaps in capability a heterosexual couple may encounter. Which aren't exactly many. Homosexual relationships don't exactly cause the participants to sprout new limbs or unusual organs, no matter what the more insane naysayers babble.

Few decades/centuries ago, there were some (still not exclusive to homosexual couples) medical issues, but, you know. We have easily accessible and effective lube now, and that and a few other things makes pretty much every sexual act that's not notably extreme (and some that are) more or less as potentially harmful as any other, provided the appropriate precautions are taken.

And yeah, the other argument against it that's not total bupkis (just mostly) is procreative. The primary problem with that, above and beyond the ones already mentioned, is that the homosexual population is simply not large enough to make or break a population's growth levels, even if methods to compensate aren't involved. You might as well have a moral scare over lifelong bachelor(ette)s or sterile couples. Which... I guess we sorta' do over the former? There's somewhat of a social stigma against that, at least in most cultures I'm aware of.

And @ Tiru: The reason those arguments are still in circulation is because some of the people advocating against homosexual relationships lie. Constantly, irrepressibly, and heinously, to the extent their twisted fabrication of reality actually starts to gain traction. That's where the pedophilia accusations come from and how they're maintained, as well as most of the arguments out there that have been thoroughly debunked. There is an incredible amount of straight up invented character attacks floating around against homosexuals (among others), and they're often propagated by people that are entirely aware their accusations are false, and do so pretty much entirely out of hate -- most of the rest comes from folks that are indoctrinated by those sorts, and those who just don't bother to investigate and give cursory adherence to whatever position is most vocal. It's some nasty stuff.
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Antsan

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10493 on: July 02, 2015, 02:19:03 pm »

Another common one (mostly used by atheists who do not support homosexuality) is that homosexual couples do not contribute to the evolution of humanity because of being unable to breed, and in fact only contribute to the elimination of their own genetic traits from the DNA pool. Some argue that this isn't a critical issue since science can correct this problem, though.
Social Darwinism, in short. As if the "human evolution" was of any concern to us!
Seriously, why the hell do people think it's a good idea to base our society around, well, breeding people?
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10494 on: July 02, 2015, 02:53:14 pm »

The logic of that is astounding. "People I don't like are not breeding! It's a problem for 'evolution'!" Actually, if everyone was breeding it would be a bigger problem for evolution. You don't get evolution when every organism breeds and there's no culling.

Natural selection is actually stipulated on selective procreation. It's no more unnatural than the fact that only queen bees and ants breed. There's no "correct" mode of breeding behavior for species in general. Who's to say that gay people aren't part of some built-in breeding regulation system for humans?

Gay people can still act as providers for the group, but reduce competition for mates. Obviously, there's some optimal level of competition and too much competition can actually be detrimental to a group. We have evidence such as the fraternal birth order effect - if a mother births more boys, the chance of each successive one being gay increases, and this holds for a specific biological mother, whether you grow up together or apart, but not socially - having older step brothers doesn't make guys more likely to be gay. So it is actually an innate biological effect, hence it is natural. Maybe it's a safety valve against excessive mate competition if a large number of males are born by chance. Considering that the other males in this case are your own older brothers, who share your parent's DNA, competing directly with them for mates is not an optimal evolution strategy.

Human ancestral groups are also posited on their being multiple providers for each child - grandparents for example. Grandparents are no longer able to breed, so by the same logic, exterminating all those icky non-breeding old people would be the optimal solution. Also - old people sex. How unnatural is that? No babies are popping out when grandma and grandpa get it on, so it must be just as unnatural as same-sex relationships.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 03:08:40 pm by Reelya »
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Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10495 on: July 02, 2015, 09:24:51 pm »

Humans are superficial bastards:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/beauty-blogger-em-ford-washes-off-her-makeup-to-reveal-a-shocking-internet-truth_55959e38e4b0569b63403b2c?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

In re BS "evolutionary" argument against gays: [Distance, 525m, wind 6 knots W-SW, barometric pressure 29.92 inHg, adjusts scope, up-bubble 2 degrees, firing]
Totally ignores nurture in favor of nature. I won't reproduce, and just taught your kid differential calculus. This sparked a STEM engineering interest and talent. Capable engineers make bank, and can get mates. Direct, non genetic influence.

No no, "non religious" opposition reasons to gays HAVE BEEN considered for a long time, and summarily shot down. Only the religious ones remain bullet hole free, because of sacred cow status. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell if the bullet holes lined the walls or the walls lined the bullet holes....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 09:30:43 pm by Truean »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10496 on: July 02, 2015, 09:30:13 pm »

It also doesn't take into account that for a decent portion of people, sexual urges are strong enough that they'll take what they can get, even if it isn't their preference.
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ggamer

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10497 on: July 02, 2015, 09:57:33 pm »

Quote
Humans are superficial bastards:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/beauty-blogger-em-ford-washes-off-her-makeup-to-reveal-a-shocking-internet-truth_55959e38e4b0569b63403b2c?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

In other news, when given anonymity human beings are shitpiles, but it looks like this extended past that into social media; that's more than a little disturbing, but statistically it's bound to happen.

Also, she looks good, actually. Maybe a little tired, but i've never been one to judge someone for their acne or whatever.

Rolan7

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10498 on: July 02, 2015, 11:26:15 pm »

People certainly are superficial bastards, often.
Not sure how a selection of social media comments is supposed to demonstrate that.  Anonymity encourages people to provoke emotional responses in order to feel relevant.  IE, troll and exaggerate.  It's not exactly hard to get insulted online.

Her acne's a bit weird, but I've seen worse.  I think people tend to ignore such things after first impressions, but I can understand wanting to conceal it.  She goes way beyond that with her makeup though, which I guess makes sense since she's a "beauty blogger"?  It probably looks more extreme because of the before/after contrast.

I dunno, just seems a weird to react so strongly to a bunch of opinions on social media.  People constantly say utterly insane things, even on Facebook...  Taking them seriously is exactly what they want.
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10499 on: July 03, 2015, 12:13:03 pm »

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