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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1286145 times)

Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10095 on: May 29, 2015, 11:42:24 am »

.... Really? You think I didn't? :) .... No. I'm going to go out of my way to be perhaps too polite in this case.... I will assume you are not fixated upon finding an easy problem with somebody else to complain about.... Trying and failing to correct me is usually a fruitless endeavor and there are tons of people who have ignored my advice out of hand and lived to regret it (prison, IRS after them, etc). Might I suggest you pay more attention to what I said, assume I might possibly have a reasonable argument rather than not, because there may be a thing or two you might have missed? Lower the amount of snide please.

I'm aware of what you quoted, but it seems perhaps the real meaning behind the words has escaped the cursory glance many people give (and the far harsher and more meaningful, understanding one I gave).

You might please look at the word before your bolding "became." How did they become too ripe? This didn't just happen. Apples are grown every single day and they don't just "[become]" too ripe. They get picked packaged and shipped instead of plowed into the soil It's what I'm complaining about along with their method of disposal.

The apples BECAME too ripe (no person left them to rot, but rather the apples are the actors huh?), because nobody did a damn thing with them, because the system is too screwed up right now. The reason those apples became too ripe (were left to rot, literally) is because of the labor shutdown at the ports (they aren't paying the dock workers enough), and the screwed up pricing system of capitalism making it unprofitable to ship them elsewhere to be juiced or sauced. There are NO local juice or saucing facilities able to take the crop in (overspecialization, lack of excess capacity, and reliance upon transporting them elsewhere.). Why not have juicing facilities near the region that produces perishable fruits in case this happens? It's usually cheaper to ship to lower labor cost areas, that's why. 

The messed up capitalism system can't deal with the bumper crop of apples and the screwy "supply and demand" system makes it so through "oversupply" of this record crop, "And prices for processor apples are so low — $10 to $30 a ton — that they do not cover shipping costs, he said. The system is making it so that the farmers are essentially punished for being too good at growing apples. How can there be a "shift in the supply curve indicating oversupply (the low price of apples) when we have people without enough food in this country? Does anybody else think that's nuts? We live in a country where way too many people are hungry but we're plowing apples into the fields and there's no practical way to get the food to the hungry people?


The thing you quoted was propaganda. It blames the apples for rotting.
I love how no person is responsible, don't all of you? It's the fruit that's at fault; it deserves to rot; and it doesn't hurt the environment. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Certainly don't blame the companies, no matter what you do don't ever blame the companies or the perfect system....

No, there's a reason people are mad at this. I'm far from reflexively hating the system -- I know it and its faults all too well. Thank you and please have a lovely day.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 11:51:23 am by Truean »
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Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10096 on: June 03, 2015, 04:34:57 pm »

Not sure where to put this and I don't feel like making a discussion thread for something so far removed from myself, so I'll put it here because it's saddening.

Thoughts on this thing? From my experience, it's definitely a thing, and I think the author puts the emphasis on the most likely root of the problem - oversimplification. What we've wound up with is a cultural narrative mandating a crusade against particular icons of intolerance, against the appearance of insensitivity, and in absolute defense of each person's emotional integrity. It's become a classic Good vs Evil thing, and in that traditional dichotomy all nuance and appreciation for context is lost; and this is disastrous when the entire point is supposed to be acceptance of people surviving in a context different than your own. In rushing to attack the latest hateful fiend, we kind of forget about anything else, like "Do I understand the situation?", "Is this target actually particularly evil?", or "Are there better options for me?" You end up getting a lot of friendly fire, wasted energy, and missed opportunities. And, of course, we provide fuel for the argument against liberalism by becoming exactly the Inquisition we're supposed to be tearing down.

But that's just my perspective.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10097 on: June 03, 2015, 04:44:11 pm »

I feel that it is an extremely well organized analysis of a growing problem.  To say that the concept of 'social justice' has be come oversimplified is a dramatic understatement on its own.
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Morrigi

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10098 on: June 04, 2015, 07:26:35 pm »

Not sure where to put this and I don't feel like making a discussion thread for something so far removed from myself, so I'll put it here because it's saddening.

Thoughts on this thing? From my experience, it's definitely a thing, and I think the author puts the emphasis on the most likely root of the problem - oversimplification. What we've wound up with is a cultural narrative mandating a crusade against particular icons of intolerance, against the appearance of insensitivity, and in absolute defense of each person's emotional integrity. It's become a classic Good vs Evil thing, and in that traditional dichotomy all nuance and appreciation for context is lost; and this is disastrous when the entire point is supposed to be acceptance of people surviving in a context different than your own. In rushing to attack the latest hateful fiend, we kind of forget about anything else, like "Do I understand the situation?", "Is this target actually particularly evil?", or "Are there better options for me?" You end up getting a lot of friendly fire, wasted energy, and missed opportunities. And, of course, we provide fuel for the argument against liberalism by becoming exactly the Inquisition we're supposed to be tearing down.

But that's just my perspective.

I was wondering if that would pop up here. What a ridiculous and saddening situation for a professor to be in.
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Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10099 on: June 04, 2015, 07:43:18 pm »

I think it's wonderful that college professors like this guy are afraid, because maybe they'll finally get their heads out of their over privileged posteriors.

Let's jump right to his BS shall we? He's not "challenging people to come out of their comfort zones," but he is being a jerk and using that as an excuse. How do I know? I tutor and actually do what he pretends to do. Think about that, me, no protections at all, teaching kids (actual minors under 18) how to think and question beliefs and relying entirely upon their parents for payment.... If their parents decide I'm a jerk who is teaching their kids things they don't like, then out the door I go, unpaid, unfed. This guy has all the protection you could ask for and just because he only has nearly ultimate protection instead of actually ultimate protection, he's complaining.

If he's like most professors in the absolutely broken American College system, all he's doing is forcing people (adults, not kids) to read an old book some Ph.D. wasted time writing about the deeper meaning of. What he should be doing is examining thought formulas and logical constructs that explain ideas instead of throwing disturbing crap at people and demanding they see things from the stupid author's point of view.

College professors are famously out of touch, and refuse to evolve even the slightest bit. They treat grown adults who are mortgaging their futures and paying outrageous tuition bills like children in an institution that segregates dorm rooms by gender like a boarding school. No customer (yes customer, you jerk) feedback, or else the professor will cry that he's not God. Meanwhile the colleges are providing terrible service not only preparing people for the job market, but teaching them to think in general, by using outdated models and steadfastly refusing to even consider changing.


You want the real irony?

This guy is claiming that students are refusing to go out of their comfort zones. He won't come out of his.

Yeah, that. To review: Old, out of touch, and complaining about it. Refusing to change while demanding others do.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go have some buffalo chicken tenders.
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10100 on: June 04, 2015, 08:00:19 pm »

No, actually, Truean, for once in my life I'm going to have to call bullshit.

Unless you're in the tenure track, you ain't got shit for protection, your job security depends on consistent student evaluations, and the ever-more business-shaped university procedures demand that you provide the education students expect instead of the one they need. This isn't a guy refusing to evolve, it's a guy being told he is forbidden to evolve, and it's not because universities are finally giving emotional harm its due weight, it's because they remain incapable of doing that and swing as far as they can against it to avoid lawsuits. You should be familiar with this horse shit! It's the same damn excuse as censoring the word "feminism" on a T-Shirt: "We have to protect our students from things they don't want to see, and your rights can take a damn backseat." The only difference is who's wielding that horsecock dildo of a bludgeon, and it's only possible because this is the one realm in which students actually exercise power; they're paying customers, now, so of course management is going to crack down to make sure they keep forking over that sweet, sweet dosh.

You're making a shitload of assumptions about who the author is, to boot, as if you need that in order to properly disagree. So he has to be old, out-of-touch, stubborn, and intent on distributing crap? You don't know shit about this guy! Step the fuck off with the personal attacks, you're usually better than this. You're attacking a caricature you had to build for the purpose, and you built it clumsily.

I hope you enjoy your chicken, you sure as shit deserve it, but c'mon. I'm disappointed.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 08:02:18 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Morrigi

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10101 on: June 04, 2015, 08:19:20 pm »

No, actually, Truean, for once in my life I'm going to have to call bullshit.

Unless you're in the tenure track, you ain't got shit for protection, your job security depends on consistent student evaluations, and the ever-more business-shaped university procedures demand that you provide the education students expect instead of the one they need. This isn't a guy refusing to evolve, it's a guy being told he is forbidden to evolve, and it's not because universities are finally giving emotional harm its due weight, it's because they remain incapable of doing that and swing as far as they can against it to avoid lawsuits. You should be familiar with this horse shit! It's the same damn excuse as censoring the word "feminism" on a T-Shirt: "We have to protect our students from things they don't want to see, and your rights can take a damn backseat." The only difference is who's wielding that horsecock dildo of a bludgeon, and it's only possible because this is the one realm in which students actually exercise power; they're paying customers, now, so of course management is going to crack down to make sure they keep forking over that sweet, sweet dosh.

You're making a shitload of assumptions about who the author is, to boot, as if you need that in order to properly disagree. So he has to be old, out-of-touch, stubborn, and intent on distributing crap? You don't know shit about this guy! Step the fuck off with the personal attacks, you're usually better than this. You're attacking a caricature you had to build for the purpose, and you built it clumsily.

I hope you enjoy your chicken, you sure as shit deserve it, but c'mon. I'm disappointed.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
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Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10102 on: June 04, 2015, 09:37:55 pm »

Yeah, no, going to respectfully disagree with you Bauglir. I'm undeserving of disappointment. Respectfully, you're making assumptions about me making assumptions. No. I'm not. Please read further and suspend judgment and emotion while doing so. Difficult request online but I respect and trust you enough to know you can handle it.

Yes, complaints are overdone, and yes, you often have people throwing out B.S. complaints (I've had more than a few to say the least). Hell I've had to deal with the completely B.S. and stupidly complaining idiots. I once knew a prosecutor who got a complaint launched against him by a person who exclaimed that the prosecutor was at fault for making him "so mad he screamed in court and got in trouble for it." So now it's somebody else's fault how an individual behaves? No. I'm not disagreeing with him on that. Actually, I'm agreeing with him on that particular point. That's not what this is really about though.

I'm also far from insensitive to the situation faced by adjuncts and actually think that should be fixed in favor of the adjuncts generally. Higher wages, better contracts, etc. This dude does have tenure though, "In early 2009, I was an adjunct." Note that past tense.

Also I'm not making assumptions or caricature. I'm going directly off what he put in his post. I hate quoting, and this guy has expressed a desire to remain anonymous so I'll erase this after I make my point so as not to trace back to his article:

The following is a spoiler quote detailing an account the author, a professor experienced. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The professor failed to deal with this situation correctly and could've done a much better job in tons of ways by doing exactly what he is saying others won't. The irony is palpable. The complaint is that this professor is being censored, when he is blowing off this (admittedly wrong, perhaps very racist) student. The professor could have handled this very differently, as most of them could. It's about bad student relations between faculty and staff, who are being paid by those students and thus should respect them. He could have defused the situation and perhaps even educated a racist student.

It's about the flawed process that pervades our society. In a perfect world, I would like ever so much to talk to this professor in a private vacuum on equal footing over coffee/drink of his choice and relay the following:

The Setting
A movie was shown about Wall St.'s recklessness messing up the economy (a point a absolutely agree with personally).

The situation:
The professor asks if the film was "effective." A student made a very inappropriate remark (due to: racist wording and ideas, as well as unsupported statements). By making this remark, the student is essentially trying and failing to say that he does not think the film was effective and stating why he (incorrectly) believes it was not effective.

The professor's inappropriate response:
Blows (inappropriate, racist comment making) student off. He avoids the substance of the question (the racist portions, and blaming Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae), shifts the student to talk about the film in what the professor sees as if it was effective (The student is trying to say it wasn't, for the wrong reasons).

The student's inappropriate response:
Other than clearly being wrong to blame black people and make a racist statement, which is rather not cool, the student reports this incident. This isn't justified on the student's part really. The student continues making off base and inappropriate comments and calls the professor "communistic."

End result:
Racist student still believes racist ideas and incorrect notions blaming black people for the recession. Professor passed up an opportunity to improve the situation and explore those portions that were perhaps legit counterpoints (government v wall street, who caused it), while refuting the underlying racist assumptions in the student's remarks.

Clarification:
THE STUDENT IN QUESTION IS AN ASSHOLE FOR BEING RACIST. I am NOT sympathizing with that individual. The world is full of assholes and you really can't control them. All you can control is your response to the situation and the professor could have done better.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Alternative response the professor could have given to the racist remark: (skip ahead for the purpose color coding)
"Well, I can see you might feel strongly about that. I disagree, as do many others. Let me also caution you against some of the words you used, because that could be perceived as somewhat being a little against "black people." We wouldn't want to hurt people based on the color of their skin, because there's nothing wrong with black people as a group, they're a lot like everybody else. Right?

That said, what about, and I quote, "Government kept giving homes to black people, to help out black people, white people didn't get anything, and then they couldn't pay for them," as you asked. First, may I suggest that might not be supported by evidence. Do you have numbers proving that the government did that? Also, "giving" homes might be a bit strong, but maybe "financing" homes. Because, I don't quite imagine it's quite as ... well ... "black and white" as your statement may suggest. Perhaps it didn't exactly happen that way?

Now perhaps you feel there was something not brought up in the film, and maybe you don't feel it was "effective," based on something? I'm sure you don't mean to imply that race played any bad role or anything that could be thought of as racist, right? Maybe you feel that government played more of a role in causing the recession than Wall Street. Maybe that, without the notion of race in there, might be a more appropriate line of questioning."
__________________________________________________________________________________________
You see what just happened there? That's a.) good student relation skills, b.) trying to engage in a constructive dialog about race and disproving racist notions, c.) engaging what may be seen as an (more legitimate once its stripped of the racist crap) alternative point of view.

Let's look at the communication skills the professor could have applied and how they can be color coded and parsed out of my little example speech there, shall we? (Just highlight the text if the corresponding colors aren't helpful for you to look at is my suggestion). 

1.) "Recognizing feelings." Feelings are incredibly important, because they guide most people's actions. Without making a value judgment, as a tactical matter, this is always good to do. Multiple purposes are served. First, it lets the person know you are listening and taking them seriously. There's a very dangerous set of dueling narratives in this country that the "other side" doesn't listen, doesn't get it, and doesn't care. "Those damn Conservatives/Liberals, or A/B." Second, this professor is talking about exploring alternate viewpoints, doing that requires calming the emotions within people.

2.) Asserting authority and correcting. Intentionally or not. This student is being racist by blaming poor black people. Not cool. This exposes the racist element of the statement. Moreover, there's a hint of social justice in there. You don't make racists not racists by telling them to shut up or brushing them off, you talk to them about it. You expose the reasons they are incorrect. That leads me to:

3.) Exposing logical flaws and fallacies This is the heart of this teacher's job. This is the education people are paying for and striving to achieve. This should be the first step towards showing logical soundness in other areas, after you weed out the BS logical fallacies, and incorrect lines of thought.

4.) Addressing the other side of the argument This is exactly the logical result of the professor's question. He asks if the film is "effective." Well at heart, there's only a couple of different answers he can expect, "yes" or "no," (or maybe a third option, I dunno but yeah). Well, this was the "no" response, sadly tainted with some racist shit that needed washed off.

You see the techniques here (applied by the professor and the one I suggest using). You see the alternatives and thought processes behind those as well as the different results? You see how the professor actually DID brush the (racist) guy off, I exclaim incorrectly? Do you see the inadvertent harm brushing people off in a discussion environment (that he paid to be part of) causes both to the education process and to society at large? Do you see how harmful viewpoints thrive on the idea that they are "legit but being ignored" (the "lame stream media won't cover it!") when people are blown off? Do you see how the professor absolutely is expressing some lovely arrogance and head in posterior positioning? A LOT of people who are now more OK with gay people, stopped being homophobic once they could talk to somebody who is gay and also a pretty ok person after all.... :)

I deal with far worse than this student every freaking day man. I've had to talk people out of crimes by addressing the incorrect ideas in their heads that they are using to "justify" their behavior. It's a communication skill in direct conflict to the old school idea most colleges are built upon and the notion of a "college kid." Moreover, it's an attempt to more accurately deal with the major problem of society's bad ideas running rampant on all sides. This is the "seeing both sides of it."

I'm using the examples he provides to form my opinions, not assuming, but I sadly can't spend all the time I would like to explaining myself.

Edit: Suffice it to say he keeps right on doing exactly this repeatedly by pointing things out as if they should be obvious to the reader, when clearly they aren't to the people complaining (those darn kids!), like the part about how he opposes harassment victims having to show proof. Hey, me too. Let's discuss that, in a respectful manner that includes all sides. Shit, I'm all for due process, but you also have to explain it from the victim's point of view in a justice system that often leaves victims feeling left out in the cold while providing lawyers for guilty as hell defendants (and I've been that provided lawyer). Same deal with his abortion rights debate being canceled argument. Same deal with the librarians calling a colleague creepy argument. Same deal over and over and over again. This isn't an assumption I'm making. This is a pattern he's showing that leads to a set of reasonable and logical conclusions showing that, like o so many in higher ed, they don't get it.

He absolutely is an old professor refusing to change. Look at what he's writing, "Commentators on the left and right have recently criticized the sensitivity and paranoia of today's college students."

.... So, "damn kids! Get off my lawn!"

Wow. Those are your customers and you're using outdated tactics. Bullshit, and I'm calling him on it while being constructive and providing actual examples and alternatives. AKA being helpful instead of just bitching. These are the future of society who will eventually inherit the earth. Maybe instead of the complaining he does, he should talk about it and explain why he's right with those individuals and counter the narrative he's opposing.

Maybe this professor could use his words instead of smugly assuming he's automatically right and the damn kids are wrong. His job isn't to be smart, which he clearly is. His job is to educate and explain. Use. Your. Words.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:27:05 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10103 on: June 04, 2015, 10:34:53 pm »

Look, I'm not saying that he handled his anecdote perfectly correctly. I can think of several improvements to his technique, and you listed most of them! But that's not what he's writing about, and you know it. You're behaving as though demonstrating that this professor is a bad person demonstrates that his argument is wrong. That's... obnoxious in the extreme. It's right for universities to censor educators because some of them are assholes? Even if you're right, you're wrong.

You're clearly a lot better at handling people than he is, and that's great! But you're picking at background fluff; what scares him is the way complaints are handled. That's exactly what this is really about. You're emphasizing a red herring, just as you are by pointing out that this guy has got tenure now (which we don't actually know, by the way; he may have moved on to being a full time lecturer or something else that pays better and more consistently without earning tenure). The presumption of guilt on the basis of emotional allegations is what he's scared of. Again, you're a lawyer, you should know how awful that is for the law.

When the administration receives a bullshit complaint, the correct response is absolutely to do the minimum required by procedure, including documenting it for future investigation if more serious complaints come up, and then get back to business. It is absolutely not acceptable to make your employees accountable for the mere presence of complaints because they're bad for business. How do you determine if the complaint is bullshit? You read it, of course. I'm not saying there's some irrefutable presumption that complaints don't need to be examined until they are proven worth of examination. But once you've made some headway in determining the character of the complaint, you should make decisions accordingly. The character of the student is totally irrelevant!

But you keep trying to make this be about who's Good or Evil. You dedicate one paragraph of your original post to explaining why your experience as a tutor qualifies you to judge this professor you've never met. You talk about how hard it is for you, and pretend that says anything about how easy it is or is not for him. Then you talk about how he's "probably" just trying to make people read meaningless books that say nothing and take a few hundred pages to do it; something that is at once without evidence and counter to the very anecdote you just quoted! You spend your next paragraph lamenting the state of the educational system, which is strange because it's precisely the product of the behavior this professor is decrying: an education focused entirely on style and emotional satisfaction over actual teaching. As far as I can tell none of this has anything to do with anything but, "I think professors are generally awful and deserve whatever shit gets hurled their way".

You're welcome to think that, but I am no more willing to accept that than I am to accept the same about lawyers.

EDIT: I snipped out a line that went a bit too far. Sorry, Truean, if you managed to read it.

EDIT: In response to the additional stuff that you've added after the edit, you're right, he could be doing a better job of handling his students, although part of his point is that he no longer can. At some point, he will inevitably be faced with a student willing to file a complaint because they didn't like what he said, and when that happens he's fucked. All he can do is cater to what they want to hear, which is exactly the environment that poisons their education in exactly the ways you don't want.

He is using his words, by writing this article, in the only way he's permitted to do so.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:59:16 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10104 on: June 04, 2015, 11:22:21 pm »

Thanks. It's cool man. I think I get what you're saying, I just think there's some mistranslation somewhere.

Na, ain't about who's "good or evil." It's about people and dealing with them in three specific instances a.) Universities dealing with complaints from students, b.) Professors dealing with students, and c.) generally dealing with differing opinions.  You nailed that first one, and again, I absolutely agree with you. The complaint process is bullshit, I said that before. You're correct that it's about the way complaints are handled, but incomplete because it's also about points "b" and "c" above. That's a critical key to the puzzle.

Here's the point: Yes, the complaint procedure is bullshit (as are many things). The issue is the way this problem is dealt with and reacted to, both generally and in his article. The fact that the complaint procedure is bullshit needs to be respectfully talked about.

He's not doing that. Instead he's calling students "sensitive" and "paranoid (and lots of other things)."

Reduced to simplest forms: IRAC (Issue, Rule, Analysis, Conclusion).

(Issue) Process for students complaining about professors is a problem. (Rule) Problems should be discussed and resolved respectfully. (Analysis) This professor does not discuss and resolve this problem, and rather, he blames students, insultingly calling them "sensitive" and "paranoid. (Conclusion) The professor's approach to the problem is wrong.

Does IRACing this help at all? I hope that clarifies my position which seems to be difficult to express. It is about the complaint procedure being bullshit, but also about how he handles it, and moreover about how we deal with bullshit like the complaint procedure. Problems, like the complaint procedure being bullshit, are going to happen, but it's how you handle it that matters....

_______________________________________________________________________

That said, yeah, I do have a problem with a lot of college professors. To be fair, maybe that is a bit much on my part, but not completely off base. This guy is a good example. He's insulting his students for trying to answer the questions he's asking (as in the example he gave), or for doing things for reasons he doesn't agree with.

Take the specific problem of the complaint procedure being bullshit (and all the examples and subproblems growing from that listed by the author). Yes, it is a problem. Agreed. He, as an academic, should be looking to the root of that problem (the causes) as well as the opposing party's viewpoints (the students), and why they have formed the opinions they have (that they should be able to complain like hell). He isn't, and rather he's going off on the kids. Don't get me wrong, there are times when it's ok to go off on people, when they deserve it. The issue with that here specifically is that he's skipping a step and assuming they deserve it because they are "sensitive, etc." He never seems to consider the other side. He should and here it is:

You have to know what the other side is before you can legitimately complain about it, much less counter it: aka devil's advocate:
A.) College Students are adults paying a lot of money for an education that should be practical and instructive. (Stakeholder and Shareholder argument) 
-Obvious financial matters
-Promises of jobs/major areas of study/expectations, etc.
B.) Colleges have a history of excluding students from meaningful decision making/expression (German model, gender dorm separation, heirarchy, etc,etc).
-Student / Teacher Model with lectures instead of discussions.
C.) Students feel ignored, minimized, and screwed (overcharged, under educated or badly educated) by outdated methods. (Technique criticism)
-Teachers use old, difficult to relate to books
D.) Students feel they often have no choice but to pander to a teacher's pet theories
-There are professors out there who will dock your grade if you don't parrot what they believe.

The above is the source of the counter movement leading tot he shift in the student teacher dynamic the author is complaining about (perhaps rightly so). These and perhaps more reasons are what is causing the shifting policy and procedure dealing with students complaining about professors (which I disagree with personally).

The professor needs to address these concerns, as an educated individual, instead of complaining about the complainers. He needs to support his points about why it is bad to place, " traditional goals of higher education — such as having students challenge their beliefs — off limits." He should not state that it is tradition and attach weight to that alone, but rather explain WHY these traditions were right to begin with, are still applicable and the best choice, and why these should support a different, more professor friendly student-complaint-against-professors policy. The professor's argument could be structured something like this perhaps:

A.) A fundamental purpose to challenging student's beliefs is making them see WHY they hold those beliefs, and why others hold opposite views
B.) A civil society thrives on civil debate and that requires understanding why views are held to argue for AND against them effectively and fairly
C.) Allowing a complaint policy where complaints stemming from discomfort caused by points A, and B above destroys points A and B's legitimate goals.
D.) The discussion is critical in all cases, and is sorely lacking. Using "offensive" examples, trains and makes less offensive ones easier to stomach.
E.) Stare Decisis It ain't broke don't fix it. Careful using that one, cause your opponents will latch right on (and they have), but there are many merits to this.

If this issue is ever going to actually be resolved, then all of the above and perhaps more needs to be taken into account without the name calling and derision this professor doles out to "those darn kids." Hey, maybe they have a few legit points and insulting them is just going to make things worse? He does insult people with every tone he takes instead of dissecting the issues as I just did.

Yes, the complaint process is a problem, and it's one that's never going to be solved until and unless we also address how he deals with his students and how problems like this complaint process should be addressed. I've had to do it with improper complaints against me and others like me. It sucks. Still needs done.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 11:33:11 pm by Truean »
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Bauglir

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10105 on: June 04, 2015, 11:29:19 pm »

Well, that's all fair enough, I suppose. Misunderstanding on my part; I was defending what seemed to be the thrust of what he said, whereas you seem to be critiquing what he was failing to say - which is basically that the students are, entirely cleverly, using whatever mechanics are available to them to get what they're really there for (a very expensive piece of paper). And instead he's placing blame on them for their apparent sensitivity (which is as much a pragmatic, learned response to "If I complain, people fix my problems" as it is any sort of moral failing). And because he's decided to latch onto the much easier rationale of "they're either evil or stupid", he's not helping anybody.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
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Truean

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10106 on: June 04, 2015, 11:34:14 pm »

Yup. What I just did, is what he needs to do -- him and all the other professors. Engage, not alienate.

This right here, if I'm not mistaken, is a good result, like the one he would vastly benefit from.

In response to your edit and in clarification thereof: He's not explaining himself well (see above) and he's making a lot of assumptions. I've hand tragic firsthand experience with this and sadly can't give too many details, but yeah. I've been accused of far worse than this professor is saying he's dealt with to say the least. It's a major pain in the butt as an understatement, I get it. He, or rather the teaching profession in higher Ed CAN constructively deal with this problem as I've outlined above by not only using their words, but actively and meaningfully doing so as a group. Prevention is the best measure and explaining / training students WHY it is undesirable to have such a bullshit complaint policy is the best choice. All that education behind those PhDs, surely they can form a persuasive argument why it is sometimes actually GOOD to be offended, and why that is NEEDED in certain times.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Glowcat

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10107 on: June 05, 2015, 02:18:46 am »

Yeah...

All I wanna say about the Vox piece and its author is that he somehow decided he'd blame vicious SJWs for rather extensive issues regarding how adjunct professors are treated by administrations (many of whom are screwed without a single social justice issue brought up at all!) and continue the recent trend where people who like to use Liberal as if it's a badge proving their essential goodness rail against the evils of identity politics. Of course he ironically does so by blaming people for not being willing to engage in subjects... while completely misrepresenting a black woman's arguments because he didn't want to rationally engage them and instead decided that her criticisms of how scientific inquiry has been constructed —and not scientific inquiry itself, which is pretty obvious even in that fraction of that tweet string which was specifically not an attack on the scientific method but the pseudoscientific outcomes from the institutions of science riddled with compromising biases which informed how science developed (particularly with regards to people and cultures)— could be summed up as "white people bad." Why he decided to go on twitter to find a random person to strawman is a mystery, but predictably she started to receive threats of violence and harassment while Mr. Anonymous Professor receives the sympathy of all those who've made a habit of bemoaning political correctness gone mad.

This article is thick with dishonest slimery and if you wanna talk about more thoughtful consideration then you should probably start at home first.

Quote from: Pre-edit Edward Schlosser article piece I'm referring to
But why draw that out to the extreme of rejecting scientific inquiry as a whole? Can’t we see how it’s dangerous to reject centuries of established thought so blithely? Or how scary and extreme that makes us look to people who don’t already agree with us? And tactically, can’t we see how shortsighted it is to abandon a viable and respected manner of inquiry just because it’s associated with white males?
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Reelya

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10108 on: June 05, 2015, 04:38:54 am »

I feel that it is an extremely well organized analysis of a growing problem.  To say that the concept of 'social justice' has be come oversimplified is a dramatic understatement on its own.

I've been reading a number of similar articles recently:

http://jezebel.com/feminist-students-protest-feminist-prof-for-writing-abo-1707714321
Story date: may 29th 2015. A couple of radical feminist students didn't like what a moderate feminist scholar wrote in an opinion article so they attacked her with Title IX complaints. During the process, the Title IX investigators asked the accused whether she'd like to make counter Title IX complaints against her accusers (which she declined). This is a corruption of what Title IX was intended to be used for. It was not meant to be a blanket mechanism for left-wing women to silence people who's articles upset them. Anyone, male or female, liberal or conservative, may be upset by other people's articles or opinion.

It's fairly clear that the sort of spurious Title IX investigations outlined in the article will only ever get off the ground if the complainant is both liberal and female, so there's a inherent political bias in the mechanism, which should be gender neutral and politically agnostic. e.g. Title IX could be used to shut down a pro-life group because it makes pro-choice women uncomfortable. But it would be utterly unthinkable (even laughable) that Title IX would be used to shut down a pro-choice group because it makes pro-life women uncomfortable. So we are presuming that how pro-choice women feel is important to protect via Title IX whereas pro-life women can go screw themselves and get no protection under Title IX.

Britain is also experience a wave of massive censorship of any idea that might make any student remotely upset:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/

One of the targets includes anyone discussing the ideas of philosophers such as Nietzsche, on the grounds that it may encourage fascism:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/05/university-college-london-s-nietzsche-club-is-banned.html
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 05:46:23 am by Reelya »
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #10109 on: June 05, 2015, 04:14:43 pm »

Banning Nietzsche only makes his undead corpse stronger.
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