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[Shinotsa]

If there were as many variables to consider as there are in real life then I'd understand multiple tests, but when there's an overwhelming result indicating the same thing in an arena test it's usually going to happen all the time. But just to confirm I re-ran 10 more times with similar results with no fewer than 9 and no more than 13 shieldless humans surviving from each 15 on 15 battle.

[Azated]

I've always wondered how much of a difference singlegrasping two handed weapons makes, and now I know.

Looking at the Wiki, I noticed that spears can be multigrasped. Does singlegrasping have as much of an effect on them as 2h swords? If so, I think my shield production will stop indefinitely.

[IT 000]

Very interesting Science! I've heard a few rumors that two handed weapons were weak compared to one handed and a shield. Glad this is false. Keep up the good work!

[huhwhozat]

Alright then.  I plan to run extensive test of my own today and post them here once I'm done.  I'll vary skill levels, equipment, and race and do five iterations of each test.  Here's all the variables I plan to hit:

Skills:
- unskilled
- adept (which is about the midway point between unskilled and legendary)
- legendary

Armor sets:
- full iron plate and one iron chain shirt &cap
- full leather armor and one leather shirt & cap
- unarmored
(by full armor I mean:  breastplate, greaves, gauntlets, high boots, helm.  Am I forgetting anything?)

Sheilds:
- iron sheilds
- wooden sheilds
- no shields

Weapons:
- iron long swords
- iron two-handed swords

Races:
- dwarves
- humans
- elves (I know they wouldn't normally get iron equip.  This is more to test the effects of their racial stats.)

All combatants skills will be equal for any one test; I don't plan to run legendary vs. unskilled for instance.  The skills I will modify are Sword, Shield, Armor, Fighting, Dodging and no others.  I aslo plan to run 10v10 combatants of the same race against each other, positioned in a straight vertical line with 8 empty spaces between the two teams, forming a 10x10 square.  (I have no idea whether the positioning would make any difference to combat results; that's a test that'll be left to another time).

To this end: is there a way to save an arena setup for rapid iteration?

[Himmelblau]

I've always wondered how much of a difference singlegrasping two handed weapons makes, and now I know.

Looking at the Wiki, I noticed that spears can be multigrasped. Does singlegrasping have as much of an effect on them as 2h swords? If so, I think my shield production will stop indefinitely.

Interesting question. I also recall miners and woodcutters multigrasping their picks and battle axes in .31. Can't check right now if this is true latest version; according to the wiki picks are singlegrasped and battle axes multigrasped(?). The wiki might be outdated anyways in this section, as it states "Using any multigrasp weapon in a single hand (ie. with a shield in the other hand) gives you a disability to hit", for example. This is not true according to the test you guys have run, 2H+shield was still able to hit, right? Though with a penalty, but nevertheless.

Do dwarves/others automatically multigrasp any weapon if their offhand is free? And is it preferrable to multigrasp any weapon if possible, or just the ones that are "meant" to be multigrasped, such as 2H-swords, great axes and halberds?

No intention to start any rumours, but can't run any tests now either. Might have time later today :/

Awesome science, by the way.

EDIT: So, just checked and no, they don't multigrasp picks or any other normally singlegrasped in .34.04, not even spears. Chances are they didn't do so in the previous versions either and I just remembered wrong.

[RadHazard]

To this end: is there a way to save an arena setup for rapid iteration?

In the \Dwarf Fortress\data\init\ folder, there's a file called arena.txt.  You can edit that to change the layout of the arena, if that's what you mean.  Just edit the letters in the file, making sure not to accidentally delete a line or something.  I don't remember which letters stand for what tile, but you can compare the file to the arena in-game to find out.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the setup of creatures, the best you can do is record a macro of you placing all the creatures, so you just have to manually set up the first creature for the test you want to run.  I've done the same thing with arena !!science!! myself before.

[Shinotsa]

You can't do it too quickly, but since the aggro range for these guys is so small I can generally cram 10 "samples" at a time into the default arena without any overlap at all. Also, I wouldn't test different types of shield. It's already seen extensive testing and the general idea is that the material only matters for shield bashing, which only matters for people who have high misc-object user or use weapons that get stuck a lot like spears. I changed all of my tests to featherwood shields purely because I noticed that any metal shield would increase the number of survivors on the OPPOSITE side by about 2 due to the added weight.

[Loud Whispers]

You know you can just click Notify for this, right?

Where's the fun in email spam?

[huhwhozat]

In review of my previous post, I made a stupid.

What I proposed would have taken over 65000 separate tests to compare all the variables.  I've come up with new parameters that will test the extremes (unskilled vs legendary, shield vs no shield) and take into account the other advice since my last post.  The new tests will require only 600 total iterations per race.  I only plan on doing humans now, since they are the median in attribute points, but if anyone would like to run the same tests on other races I can send the specs and a recording template their way (probably via a google docs spreadsheet).  This will probably take all of tomorrow, possibly into Saturday; I have a busy couple of days.  I plan to use version 0.34.04 which is the latest version at the time of this post.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the setup of creatures, the best you can do is record a macro of you placing all the creatures, so you just have to manually set up the first creature for the test you want to run.  I've done the same thing with arena !!science!! myself before.

Excellent, thanks!

Also, I wouldn't test different types of shield. It's already seen extensive testing and the general idea is that the material only matters for shield bashing...

Good to know.  I will use just one material of shield, or no shield at all.

[friendguy13]

I've always wondered how much of a difference singlegrasping two handed weapons makes, and now I know.

Looking at the Wiki, I noticed that spears can be multigrasped. Does singlegrasping have as much of an effect on them as 2h swords? If so, I think my shield production will stop indefinitely.

Spears can't be multigraped by any of the main civilized races (though Kobolds can and some other animalmen are too small to use them at all) they are all large enough that spears at considered one handed weapons.

[NAME:spear:spears]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500] "humans are 700000. dwarves are 60000.  Kobolds are 20000"-me
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000] amphibian men, etc., need variants
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[Sutremaine]

3 in 49 dwarves are smaller than 47500 size.

[friendguy13]

3 in 49 dwarves are smaller than 47500 size.

Wait. How.  Is the size range for creatures really that large?

[Shinotsa]

3 in 49 dwarves are smaller than 47500 size.

Wait. How.  Is the size range for creatures really that large?

I saw a group of four guys today who were each no shorter than 6'5", then went to class with a friend who's 4'11". It wouldn't surprise me if Dwarf Fortress transfered that kind of variability to the size of dwarves.

[Soralin]

What kind of results do you get on this test if your humans have 3 or more hands?

[Shinotsa]

What kind of results do you get on this test if your humans have 3 or more hands?

My god we need dual wielding and worldgen mutations right now. I can imagine the most prominent historical figure in the world being a devout follower of a god who blessed him with an extra set of arms and increased agility.

But that is an interesting question... I think he'd still be able to multigrasp while holding a shield, but knowing DF it might just check to see if one hand is occupied and then have only single grasp available. The only thing that's for sure is that an extra hand would let you measure the height of horses faster...