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Author Topic: Oh Armok, it has begun!  (Read 12631 times)

Doughnut189

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2012, 12:09:55 am »

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I never said it wasn't possible. Utopia is possible.

But it won't happen.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 12:13:34 am »

We don't have to control the world population.

Industrialized first-world nations are already largely at or below the replenishment rate, with the majority of any growth from immigration. In Japan, for example (due to relatively low immigration) it's estimated the population will drop by as much as 30% by 2060. The US is the only real exception, but even here our population growth is declining.

So once the poor 3rd world nations start to become prosperous (which I believe in inevitable, though we could do a lot to help them out) there's no reason to believe they won't experience the same effect and the problem solves it's self.
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wierd

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 12:18:03 am »

Actually, we are close to overpopulation.... the resource is not food, water, space etc at this time.  It is energy consumption. Modern civilization requires this energy, and we have already reached peak oil. Without a long term replacement, this spells imminent disaster.

We needed fusion yesterday.  What percentage of the world budget is allocated to that project?

Ok... now, compare against the budgets for single mothers and their babies.....

Ok... now compare to the budgets spend researching how to blow everyone else up.

See the problem now?  Fusion has been "50 years away" for 70+ years now.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 12:32:25 am »

Oil won't run out overnight. As prices rise, the irrational opposition to nuclear (and it is irrational - a modern nuclear plant is simply incapable of melting down) will vanish. We've got at least 80 years of uranium in known, proven deposits (and most of those are in Australia and Canada) and it's very likely there are many more unknown deposits. On top of that, it's theoretically possible to use thorium in some nuclear reactors, and there's estimated 3 times as much thorium in the earth's crust as there is uranium.

Is nuclear as convenient as oil for running cars? no. But being forced to switch to electric cars will hardly be the end of the world.
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Kofthefens

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 12:38:33 am »

Oil won't run out overnight. As prices rise, the irrational opposition to nuclear (and it is irrational - a modern nuclear plant is simply incapable of melting down) will vanish. We've got at least 80 years of uranium in known, proven deposits (and most of those are in Australia and Canada) and it's very likely there are many more unknown deposits. On top of that, it's theoretically possible to use thorium in some nuclear reactors, and there's estimated 3 times as much thorium in the earth's crust as there is uranium.

Is nuclear as convenient as oil for running cars? no. But being forced to switch to electric cars will hardly be the end of the world.

Nuclear certainly does have downsides. Modern plants cannot melt down so far as we know- it's what we don't know that will kill us. In addition, there is the whole issue of nuclear waste.

However, I am not saying nuclear is completely bad or useless; it is far better than oil. I just think that there are better options out there, namely solar and wind. It will have its part to play, we need all we can. Nuclear is just one piece of the puzzle.
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wierd

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2012, 01:09:31 am »

When the situation becomes desperate enough, the atomic energy commision will *finally* relent on the ban on fast breeder reactors.

Combined with modern reactor designs, this will permit the recycling of high level waste back into fuel to be re-reacted again.  The idea is to switch to a lower grade fuel, like thorium, and use the breeder reactor to do the conversion.  The resulting waste is considerably less radioactive. (Halflife of a few hundred years, vs several hundred thousand.) It also produces much less waste overall.

The AEC forbids these reactors because they can be used to turn reactor grade uranium into bomb grade plutonium.

Again, we are back at the "OMG, BLOW STUFF UP!" Crossroads. Either we switch to efficient reactor designs until we get fusion, and risk some dumbfuck with a small penis and a big ego making nuclear e-peens to wave around.... or, we glow in the dark from the waste, or we crash back to the dark ages.

Decisions... decisions.
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scion-of-fenrir

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2012, 01:23:56 am »

I love this forum...
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malroth

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2012, 01:31:58 am »

Draft all the useless cheese makers, lye makers and unskilled children.  Give them crossbows and iron bolts and have them shoot the carp.  either the impromptu millitia will win and the carp problem is solved or the carp will win in which case the overpopulation is solved.  Really for a forum of people who use dwarfy soultions to all sorts of problems, this thread has been really slow on coming up with solutions that would be perfectly fine in everybody's forts.
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Aspgren

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2012, 01:36:26 am »

When the situation becomes desperate enough, the atomic energy commision will *finally* relent on the ban on fast breeder reactors.

Combined with modern reactor designs, this will permit the recycling of high level waste back into fuel to be re-reacted again.  The idea is to switch to a lower grade fuel, like thorium, and use the breeder reactor to do the conversion.  The resulting waste is considerably less radioactive. (Halflife of a few hundred years, vs several hundred thousand.) It also produces much less waste overall.

The AEC forbids these reactors because they can be used to turn reactor grade uranium into bomb grade plutonium.

Again, we are back at the "OMG, BLOW STUFF UP!" Crossroads. Either we switch to efficient reactor designs until we get fusion, and risk some dumbfuck with a small penis and a big ego making nuclear e-peens to wave around.... or, we glow in the dark from the waste, or we crash back to the dark ages.

Decisions... decisions.

I heard someone talk about "Thorium" which would work better and safer than uranium and couldn't be turned into plutonium.
I haven't read up on it but the claim was that we DON'T use Thorium because we love ourselves some bombs. The source was 4chan though so idunno might be pigtails.

 also about the carp ... yeah they screw up the ecosystem. so they should be fished violently from the word go. we're pretty good at killing off entire species so i still don't really see a problem. sounds to me like the fishing industry will thrive for a while rather than go belly-up. fish are very different from rabbits and such so the same thing that happens in australia where they burrow and breed just won't happen here.

it really might be bad for the ecosystem though. even if the carp get fished to death in months; what if they favor one micro-organism over another? that tips the scale on a microscopic level which might be bad. so it makes sense to take action but failing to do so isn't a disaster of biblical proportions. probably.
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Oliolli

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2012, 02:08:43 am »

If humanity is to go, I would much rather have it because of technology, not because technology couldn't stop it.

By the way, what do you people think of global warming? That's a pretty present threat AFAIK. I've heard that the earth has already crossed the threshold after which it can't be stopped.

Good riddance.

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If I understood that right, I like your way of thinking.

We're pretty good at killing off entire species...

Killing things is what humanity has been practicing for thousands of years now...
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Aspgren

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2012, 02:23:41 am »

By the way, what do you people think of global warming?

I'm pretty sure that the threat is exagerated and we will be fine. but I also read a comic that I strongly agreed with and chuckled at.

There was a man standing up during a lecture on global warming. He proclaims "What if this is all a big hoax and we make the world a better place in vain??"

Because. Y'know. If we do something about it there's no way we'll lose even if it was all pigtails. ... except if there's the unlikely event that global warming could have prevented the next ice age or something. You never know, but it's always best to act on the likely things that could occur rather than the unlikely y'know?
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Oliolli

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2012, 02:31:49 am »

...the unlikely event that global warming could have prevented the next ice age...

Interesting, yet utterly useless fact: technically currently we are living in an ice age. As long as there are glaciers that don't melt during the entire year it is an ice age.

So if global warming works, it will actually end the ice age.
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Vehudur

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2012, 02:41:02 am »

The carp solution:

Eat them.  In vast numbers.  Yes, I know they taste terrible.  Sell them as discount food.

It works for the Chinese.
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wierd

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2012, 02:54:06 am »

The carp solution:

Eat them.  In vast numbers.  Yes, I know they taste terrible.  Sell them as discount food.

It works for the Chinese.

Actually, the native american species of carp taste like fish sticks when properly cooked.
(Grew up poor. Ate a LOT of "trash fish" growing up, because there isn't a catch limit.)

By the way, what do you people think of global warming?

I'm pretty sure that the threat is exagerated and we will be fine. but I also read a comic that I strongly agreed with and chuckled at.

There was a man standing up during a lecture on global warming. He proclaims "What if this is all a big hoax and we make the world a better place in vain??"

Because. Y'know. If we do something about it there's no way we'll lose even if it was all pigtails. ... except if there's the unlikely event that global warming could have prevented the next ice age or something. You never know, but it's always best to act on the likely things that could occur rather than the unlikely y'know?

The problem with global climate change (more specifically, anthropogenic climate change) is that people often conflate it with weather.  Weather is dependent upon climate, but climate is not weather.

That the climate has changed is undeniable, and even the most outspoken in the "skeptic" (ahem..) community have reluctantly acknowledged this. They contend that the climate change is not anthropogenic, however. I won't touch that lepritic whore of an issue with a 100 meter pole.

Instead, I will look at it this way: if the climate change is NOT anthropogenic, then the human contribution certainly can't be helping things any. A recent report from one of those many climate research firms with alphabet soup names reported that temperature probe data from several sites in northern hemispheric tundra indicates a trend that will result in those areas ceasing to be a carbon sink, and turn into a carbon source.  To better understand what that means, imagine if the amazonian rainforest caught fire, and was totally burned up, and the impact that would have. The two events are on par with other.

Another disturbing report came from russia, where it was reported that methane clathrate deposits were no longer thermally stable, and were actively seeping methane. Methane clathrate is a special kind of water ice that mechanically contains methane gas in an alarmingly high concentration. Methane clathrate can literally be set on fire. Methane is co2's big brother in the greenhouse gas family, and unstable clathrate deposits are a very very bad thing.

When clathrates on the seabed decompose, they expell an effervescent stream of gas bubbles, which causes ships to spontaneously lose their bouyancy, and literally fall to the seafloor without warning. (A ship floats by displacing water volume, because uniform water pressure against the hull pushes it up. When the water cannot be atmospherically pressurized, because the net density drops, because it is now a lowered density foam, the ship sinks like a rock.) The vast majority of methane clathrate is on coastal shelves. So, not only will the spontaneous thermal breakdown of these deposits release more methane than the whole of human civilization could release in co2 if it were nuked from orbit, it will also make sea travel impossible in coastal waters that have such deposits, until the deposits are completely exhausted.

I find climate change quite worrisome, therefor. The sooner we ditch the gasoline and coal addiction, the better. All the more so if the trend is indeed natural.
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Oh Armok, it has begun!
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2012, 03:07:34 am »

Solar. Wind. Hemp, or just biofuel in general. Tidal power. Geothermal power.

All of these are renewable. We should do them.

Not nuclear power. Too many problems. Even if you trust computers and people enough to where a meltdown is impossible (and I trust neither), you're forgetting acts of God and sheer human incompetence. Like, say, building a reactor on a fault line. Not to mention storage of waste, getting the stuff out of the ground, the inevitable cancer that occurs as a result, inevitable accidents from transport and storage, terrorism, etc, etc. Not to mention: non-renewable resource.

Call me irrational all you like; I surf right next to San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station.
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