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Wait for the next release. I want usable mugs damn it!

55 (71.4%)

We can use the current one. I like the big trees and slightly smarter dorfs.

17 (22.1%)

I'll take .34.11 thanks. I want to know I'll get to kill things for sure.

5 (6.5%)

Total Members Voted: 77

[Talvieno]

Random thought that occurred to me: Should Mr Frog be capable of wielding magic? Gnomes are generally magical creatures in most other contexts I've encountered them in, and he seems pragmatic enough to use any conceivable tool at his disposal. On the other hand, he'd probably find some of the details of the current magic system as irritating as I do, would probably have used magic earlier if he could do so, and is already ten kinds of hax anyways, so I'm not sure.

I think that if he could use magic, he would do so whenever it served his purposes, which would likely have been a lot more often than once in 11 years. If he saw that it could serve his purposes, he would endeavor to learn it, and wouldn't wait 11 years into the fort to start. Then again, it's not my character, and you can do with him as you please.

Personally, I think magic should always be at least a little chaotic and unpredictable, and therefore somewhat unreliable.  Otherwise it isn't so much magic as it is science operating under different rules.

The way I wrote it in is as science operating under different rules. If it must be said, I absolutely detest the "just because" genre of magic. Why do wands work? They just do. Why do potions work? They just do. Why do spells work? They just do. <--- I hate that, especially in a universe where we're actively trying to explain everything. In the Battlefailed series, if something didn't make sense, they poked fun at it and moved on, leaving the whole continuity very messy. Thus far in Spearbreakers, we've gone out of our way to explain how even the most minute details of everything work.

What if it is a form of science, and our view of science is wrong?

Then, by how I define magic and science, it would merely be science instead of magic and our knowledge of science is faulty.  With magic, you preform an experiment where literally every variable is unchanged and get a completely different result each time, and there is no pattern to what any given change would do to a spell.  I.E. adding an extra frog eye to the mix of a potion at the very beginning of the recipe could make a water-breathing potion instead turn the drinker orange, a healing potion summon a swarm of frogs, or a strength-increasing potion growing an extra pair of arms out of your forehead.

This is precisely the definition of magic that I hate (the Harry Potter style of magic). It changes to suit the author. While I like to write without constraints, this takes it too far for me. As I explained it, magic is "supernatural forces". Therefore, while it can definitely do the same thing every time, it's a bit beyond the reaches of normal experimentation, as you can't measure or quantify the energy behind what goes on. It is "magic", but it has laws behind it, and is in fact a form of science, exactly as Aseaheru said.
    In case you hadn't noticed, what you're suggesting undoes a huge portion of what I've already written... and is likely the prime source of my extreme displeasure. I didn't particularly want to write magic in myself, but it was the only thing that made sense in order for the Parasol arc to go smoothly.

Mr Frog's Rant on Science vs Magic

    I agree with you wholeheartedly, on every little thing you said. (Mr Frog has not been a buffoon of any sort in anything I've written, by the way.)

Mr Frog, I myself don't like the Magic Vs Science either, I am just trying to provide a clear-cut line defining whether any given thing is one or the other.  Clark's Third Law (and corollaries) leaves the only difference between the two as whether or not we understand how it works.  Therefore, I make the dividing line this:

• If the underlying means of how something works can be deconstructed to provide consistent rules for how it works and/or follow follow pre-existing ones, then it is science.  Otherwise, it is magic.
• All science in the same reality, universe, and dimension share the same set of rules, with no 2 rules being direct contradictions of each other. 
  • side-note: Magic powerful enough to change the rules science follows is the same as magic capable new realities/universes/dimensions, but these rules mean only with near omnipotence could expect to be able to control it enough to get the desired result, and even then it's all but guaranteed that some if not most minor details will be off.
• It does not matter whether or not any has figured out the rules science follows, only that they (that is, the rules) are.

Following this, magic can be far more powerful but science will always remain consistent, predictable, and reliable.  A mage could one day find none of his spells do what they originally did (like his fireball spell now summoning an orange instead) but you can always rely on a gun and predict what effects any change in the design will have.  (this would also serve as another good reason for why Dorf!Frog would not use magic.)

    Aaaaannnndddd..... this pretty much contradicts everything I've done. At first I thought you were trying to classify what I've called "magic" as "science" - which I would've been completely fine with - I'm writing it from Vanya's point of view anyway, and she's supposed to be a particularly imaginative girl with a penchant for adoring anything she thinks of as "magical".
    As I kept reading further, it became more and more clear you're trying to make up new rules that contradict what I've written (and I think it might be worth noting at this point that you haven't really written anything yourself).
    However, I won't object, if everyone else thinks it's better that way... Instead, I will simply take my writing elsewhere. I'd been idly considering splitting Vanya's story off from the main continuity, and if the rules get rewritten to this extent (basically everything I wrote getting tossed in the can), then I think this would be about when I decide to do it. I'm not going to bend the rules for myself just because they go against what I'd like.

     I'm sorry if this came off as a bit hostile, but I think there isn't much that I would've less preferred to see when I came back.

Oh, and in other news, I'm back... and apparently with a vengeance. I lost access for a while.


edit:

I demand another journal of Vanya. (Hopefully not written in italics, no offense, but I can't read italics very well. My brain has the tendency to skip a lot while reading italics...)

Thanks, Tomio. That was encouraging to read. I think I needed that. If you still want it, I'll try to get the next chapter out soon.

[soulslicerjames]

Talvi, perhaps I should clarify: All of that is merely how I define whether something is magic or science.  I was only trying to clearly explain it, and am perfectly fine if anyone disagrees with it.  I will never force my views on others, and accept that how magic is defined in any given setting can be different from how I, personally, do so.

[Reudh]

I dearly wish for Vanya to remain part of the continuity; you're the strongest writer in the group for the reason that Vanya is the most popular character.

Please, please, PLEASE don't discharge yourself from SB!

[Splint]

And he's the most active out of all of us because he's able to scale the wall of writer's block better than the rest of us.

[Mr Frog]

Talvi's back! Woohoo!

@Talvi:

I personally think gnomes should be magical, and had been considering giving Mr Frog magic since long before I started the Eris thing, but hesitated because, let's face it, he's already a screaming Marty Stu and the last thing he needs is yet another superfluous skill to add to his already-overflowing portfolio. As it is, giving him magic now would raise the question of why the hell he didn't use it earlier, so I'm pretty firmly on 'no'. I was really just floating it for funsies.
     I'm not nearly involved enough with the canon to make definitive statements on any aspects of it, but here's my personal take on the matter (whether the Powers that Be (i.e. Splint, Talvi) will use it is up to them):

• Gnomes, on average, have a natural talent for magic surpassing that of humans (perhaps with a particular affinity for spells that rely on earth and stone, though I'm not sure how well that would gel with Talvi's Rules for Magic).
• However, as with any trait in any species, not every gnome has the same amount of magical ability; some are prodigies, while others actually have less power than humans.
• Additionally, even highly-magically-talented gnomes do not innately know how to use magic; they must still be trained in its use by an expert.
• Following from this, though gnomes in general can potentially use magic quite well, Mr Frog himself does not use magic, as he was either not trained in its use, had little magical talent to begin with, or a combination of the above.

@ssj:

[to be read in a neutral, calm tone]
The problem is that, at the end of the post in question, you used your premises to make an argument with regards to SB canon, to wit whether Mr Frog would use magic, which at best implied a form of equivocation in which you were treating Talvi's use of the term 'magic' as representing the same concept as your usage of the same term, even though it didn't actually. Everything up to that last parenthetical sentence just struck me as harmless commentary, but after that point shit, as they say, got real.

@Asea:

Gargoyles lives on only in the form of reruns, sadly

[Talvieno]

@ssj
I really did come off as too hostile, I think... It was late, I was tired, and I really should've cooled off a bit before I posted. I am sincerely sorry for how I responded. That said... If I might lend my ideas, perhaps anything involving supernatural forces could be termed "magic"? Anything not involving supernatural forces would be termed "science". It might throw a bit of trouble into working it into in-character canon, though, as a dwarf newly introduced to a mechoid battlesuit could go, "Huh, Urist, mus' be magic," as they obviously wouldn't understand how it worked straightaway. Then again, I've always imagined that dwarves have a somewhat medieval sense of science in the first place (such as rotting meat creates maggots, and bad smells creates flies), so if they got it wrong... lol    Maybe they'd point at a mechoid operator and yell, "Witch! Witch! Witch!"
    Or, a finer example:

Witches burn. Wood burns too. Hence, witches are made of wood. Wood floats. Ducks float too. Therefore, if a person weighs the same as a duck, said person is a witch and burnable.

I dearly wish for Vanya to remain part of the continuity; you're the strongest writer in the group for the reason that Vanya is the most popular character.
Please, please, PLEASE don't discharge yourself from SB!

Lol, Thanks, Reudh. My main reasoning behind it was... well, honestly, I felt guilty that what I was doing had very little to do with actual Spearbreakers canon, as related to the happenings of the fort. I know I spent X chapters working my way up to getting her to Parasol, but now that she's just about there, it just felt wrong of me. The fact that Splint himself has been making out-of-fort canon all this time didn't really sway my thoughts, either. lol

And he's the most active out of all of us because he's able to scale the wall of writer's block better than the rest of us.

I like to think I'm just very bad at shutting up. lol

@ Mr Frog (not quoting because length)
    I do think that Mr Frog's species (as a whole) should be particularly magically-inclined, yes. It gives Mr Frog himself a little more backstory, too - a loner who separated himself from his race because he didn't like using magic at all. And the "earth and stone" thing doesn't clash at all with my rules, so no issue there. It's not too difficult to imagine that certain species are better at using certain orientations of magic - and that's in addition to how they would likely worship gods of earth/stone/etc. But now I have to ask, because I haven't thought about it before... Is dorf!Mr Frog an atheist?

    "However, as with any trait in any species, not every gnome has the same amount of magical ability; some are prodigies, while others actually have less power than humans."

    ... you are awesomer now.

Additionally, even highly-magically-talented gnomes do not innately know how to use magic; they must still be trained in its use by an expert.

    And awesomer still. These are a couple pet peeves of mine and you sidestepped both of them with ease. I think it's a great idea that gnomes be better at using magic. This also explains why Mr Frog briefly implied he had a fair amount of knowledge on the subject (when looking at the remains of Vanya's bracelet and informing her that it looked nothing like a magic-based system).

[Mr Frog]

@Talvi:

Hmmm... Well, Mr Frog being an atheist in the accepted sense of not believing in the existence of gods would be highly-stupid and out-of-character for him, as gods in this setting have a direct, visible impact on the environment that can be invoked at will, and are thus easily-demonstrable as existing. He may not involve himself in divine affairs, but I doubt he actually denies the existence of gods.

Mr Frog's knowledge of magical workings could indeed imply that he was once interested in that field of study, perhaps abandoning it after accepting that he was terrible at it. This could possibly lead to some degree of sour grapes on his part, depending on how badly he wanted to be a mage.

E: This also raises the possibility that Mr Frog does know some spells, but never uses them because he has so little magic power/mana/whatever that he can't produce effects on a practical scale without nearly killing himself from the exertion.

[Talvieno]

Hmmm... Well, Mr Frog being an atheist in the accepted sense of not believing in the existence of gods would be highly-stupid and out-of-character for him, as gods in this setting have a direct, visible impact on the environment that can be invoked at will, and are thus easily-demonstrable as existing. He may not involve himself in divine affairs, but I doubt he actually denies the existence of gods.

I misspoke. The existence of the gods is unquestionable, and one such as Mr Frog would consider it ridiculous to doubt that fact. I didn't mean "atheist" so much as "choosing not to bother with worshiping any of them".

Mr Frog's knowledge of magical workings could indeed imply that he was once interested in that field of study, perhaps abandoning it after accepting that he was terrible at it. This could possibly lead to some degree of sour grapes on his part, depending on how badly he wanted to be a mage.

Ahhh... I like that idea. Also, might he hold that against Vanya when she returns to Spearbreakers, seeing as she knows magic (albeit only one spell)? Although I suppose that would also depend on how badly he'd wanted to become a mage.

[Mr Frog]

^I put a fairly-significant edit to the above prior to you posting. Just a heads-up.

I think Frog would only bother paying respect to gods if he actually stood to benefit from doing so or if there was some penalty for not doing so.

[Talvieno]

Yeah, I see the edit. It looks like I posted before you edited, though, but small difference. I think it's possible he knows some spells, yeah - but probably small ones, I would think. As he never really practices or prays or anything, while I bet he could cast them, it would probably tire him out, and he wouldn't be able to use them often anyway. At least with the magic pseudoscience I came up with.

Penalty to not praying? None whatsoever, I'd think... It seems laughable that a god would strike you down just for not worshiping them - at least with traditional pantheons. If he doesn't use spells, he doesn't stand to benefit from it, so I doubt he'd pray.

[Splint]

Very few people in the fortress worship anything anyway. I think i've seen a few gods out of the 100+ dwarves, and above them in numbers are thise who worship two particular.... somethings that i can't identify. Everyone else except fro probably our human is an atheist.

[soulslicerjames]

Well, It's nice that no-one feels attacked anymore.  As for the last line of my explanation post, I am at fault for having a bad habit of applying my theories and definitions to things even when they would not be the case and not thinking through what I might imply by stating what I'm led to by doing so.

[Splint]

Joke time: Penalty for not praying? Depends on the god.

War (And associated 'Virtues' such as courage, valor, and honor: Won't care so long as you keep up the violence.
Jewels: Who would have thought that prase could spontaneously combust and have effects like a hand grenade?
Minerals: S/He'll drop the ceiling on your ass.
Metal: Seems that magma smelter had a faulty pump.

Elements of all kinds
Fire (And things that cause it like magma and volcanos): Spontaneous combustion.
Ice: Frost bite in your vice box so you'll quit bugging them.
Wind: There just so happened to be a tornado while you were outside.
Water: Huh, how did your room suddenly fill with water?
Earth: Swallowed by a sinkhole filled with jagged rocks at the bottom.

A few misc. ones
Pestilence (And things like slime, pus and general diseasery): Hope you like magical space AIDS!
Death: The grim reaper will stop by for a brew, then beat you with a mug until you're dead (While wearing gloves so he doesn't kill you that way.)
Twilight/Night/Dusk: Night troll abduction of course.
Madness: Someone's mood somehow failed, prompting them to go  on a rampage with a wooden stick.
Treachery/Betrayl: Killed by your best friend/ a member of your family for your platinum mug collection.
Dawn/Day/Sun: Think ant in a magnifying glass.

[Lolfail0009]

Hello again! 
I know I said a month a day, but my network dadministrator changed the password on me. Still, onto Slate? And Felsite, because nothing happened in Slate.

4th Slate:
   Three migrants arrived, frightful but bloodthirsty nonetheless. They shall join the militia.
   
11th Slate:
   I have begun construction of imitations of the Angelbane Pods. These pods were a simple room constructed of fortifications, containing a drink, a meal, and a supply of bolts for one marksdwarf. These are excellent at whittling opponents before they reach the main gates.

28th Slate:
   I visited Idyllia again tonight. It appears as though the Voidspawn have receded. For now. I fear for the worlds' safety...
   
2nd Felsite:
   Wow, does time pass so quickly in this world? Either way, a Forgotten Beast has arrived! Some kind of firebreathing leech, I think.

   
8th Felsite:
   And not one week later, another beast! This one appears to be able to fly...

   
16th Felsite:
   Elves! Oh well, anything to break the monotony. Let's see if they have sun berries...
   
20th Felsite:
   Goblins... Is that all you can do, Armok or Skouro or Holistic or whoever? One goblin ambush? (No screenshot, but they were annihilated. I was kinda proud when I saw three cases of stabbing a head off.)

25th Felsite:
   Choppa seems to be a lot more reserved than usual... In Angelbane I saw numerous cases such as this, and I think we are going to see either some wonder of dwarven technology, or a glumprong splint.
   
5th Hematite:
   Wow, is it already Hematite?

[Talvieno]

Great updates, Lolfail. Glad to see you're doing such a great job with it.

I've started back with writing chapters - I spent the last few mornings working out the exact plot for the Parasol arc of Vanya's story, and I think I finally have it down. It's a bit easier than doing it at Spearbreakers, because I don't have to leave things open for cameos. I should have something up soon(ish).

On a side note, while researching PTSD, I was stricken with the sudden realization of just how cruel I am to my characters. I feel guilty about it now for some reason...