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[AzureShadow]

This is just something I find particularly odd, when there are several real-life comparisons.

For example, the Navy Seals' (and presumably SWAT teams and other elite military/police forces) training regimen includes being put in a chamber and repeatedly exposed to pepper spray, tear gas, and other similar chemicals so the people going through the training will build up an immunity to the effects of these chemicals. Several forms of martial arts training involve repeatedly exposing yourself to blows to all parts of the body to build up your resistance to blunt force.

So how is putting Dwarves through similar training with spears any different, and considered exploiting? I'm a bit curious about the idea of this.

[Girlinhat]

Because the pepper spray room exposes you to pepper spray.  Dwarven danger rooms are getting sprayed with pepper spray while wearing a gas mask - and still somehow building an immunity!

Proper exploity danger room involves full armor and training spears, rendering all blows deflected and training 10x blows per ~30 ticks, for MASSIVE exp gains at zero danger.

Many players choose to use edged spears and less armor, adding some more danger to the aspect.  It's just that the conventional use is heavily imbalanced.

[NinjaBoot]

Navy Seals don't become Navy Seals by being put into a room and coming out less than a month later as some form of super-soldiers.

But yeah, it trains their military skills ridiculously fast, and thus is considered exploiting by some.  This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you don't like the hassle of suffering through many deaths in your military, or have to worry about invasions or the majority of FB's.

[AzureShadow]

That makes a bit more sense, but if it's training you in armor use and dodging wouldn't that be a bit more appropriate? I mean, you're still dodging the spears even if they don't actually damage you, and taking blunt impact to armor will get you used to taking hits on it in combat.

It does seem a bit fast, though.

[Gukag]

If danger roomed trained only armor skill, shield and dodging, but MUCH much more slowly than it does now, it wouldn't be exploity. I don't see how a training room would make a dwarf a better fighter or more skilled with a weapon though.
It's an exploit because clearly that was never the intention of Upright Spear traps. If it had been, the ridiculous speed with which it trains skills would've been changed. When building a danger room makes training, leaders, teaching and learning skills obsolete, it's pretty obvious it's a cheaty shortcut to super dwarves.

[Abraxis]

My only problem with it is there's no downside.  In those real life comparisons, the amount anyone can take in any given length of time is limited.  Hit a martial artist every now and again with time to recover to build up his tolerance?  That's fine.  Repeatedly hit him for two months straight, he'll die.

If dwarfs could be injured by a training weapon danger room, thus forcing you to limit their exposure, and creating a cost for using this blatantly superior method of training, I'd be fine with it.

[Blah]

A 10 spear training room tile will give you legendary+5 fighters in a minute or two.

[NinjaBoot]

A real life example would be throwin into a room and getting raped by 10 people wielding wiffle bats, and when you come out a few hours later you'd be a MMA god. 

I have had dwarves become over-exhausted and bruise a foot in a danger room before, but thats it.  They should make wooden spears/wooden weapons breakable.  That way if you were to use a Danger Room, you'd have to have a huge supply of training spears on hand, and have to constantly reset the whole trap, thus making it 10x harder to implement and use.

[Girlinhat]

They can be injured in a danger room, if you use metal spears or menacing spikes.  My vote is: Keep it as they are.  It provides an easy cop out for people who just want to skip the whole training part.  Anyone who wants a dangerous danger room can use 1x bronze spear and copper armor for a slower pace and a higher risk.  Get tricky, and you can link it to a water repeater, to slow it down considerably and keep it more in line.  Fortunately, the danger room can be tailored to any playstyle, to allow any amount of ease or encourage any amount of bloodshed.  Just change the armor used, and/or the spears used, and you can make it less cheaty!

[Montague]

Really though, military training is sort of broken anyways. I don't think any amount of training should bring a soldier up to legendary super-soldier status. There should be a point of diminishing returns where only actual combat can grant significant experience gains, maybe after 'proficient' is reached or some such.

I think danger rooms would still fit into the training regime, but perhaps reaching diminishing returns after 'competent' in armor, shield, dodging, ect or some such. There would only be so much benefit from getting endlessly battered by poles popping out of the floor on regular intervals.

[Girlinhat]

The issue there is, how do you distinguish?  A blow from a training spear is a combat action, same as a silver whip.  If you disable training spear experience, then you disable actual combat experience as well.  If you say "no exp from wooden weapons" then what happens when you're at war with the elves?  No soldiers get above proficient because the elves use wooden weapons?  What about "no exp from traps"?  That's a bit more reliable, but can still cause a host of strange problems as exp gain is suddenly choked in strange ways.

[miauw62]

They can be injured in a danger room, if you use metal spears or menacing spikes.  My vote is: Keep it as they are.  It provides an easy cop out for people who just want to skip the whole training part.  Anyone who wants a dangerous danger room can use 1x bronze spear and copper armor for a slower pace and a higher risk.  Get tricky, and you can link it to a water repeater, to slow it down considerably and keep it more in line.  Fortunately, the danger room can be tailored to any playstyle, to allow any amount of ease or encourage any amount of bloodshed.  Just change the armor used, and/or the spears used, and you can make it less cheaty!

This.
Play the game the way you like it, as long as you dont affect other people whit it.

[rtg593]

As a test I put 2 raw recruits in a danger room. Within minutes, they were Legendary+5 Fighters, Spearmen, and Shield Users. Armor User and dodger were barely rising, so I took away their shields and took their spears away, gave them maces. At the rate they go, I can have those 2 at Legendary+5 in all military skills before the next siege.

Like a previous post said, you don't go in a room for a month and come out the best, most perfectly trained and capable warrior the world has ever seen...

You can only sharpen a blade so long before you begin to dull the edge.

That being said... Ultimate legendary warriors within a few weeks may be the only way to hold off the evil biomes right now, soooo...:p

[Lexx]

My only problem with it is there's no downside.  In those real life comparisons, the amount anyone can take in any given length of time is limited.  Hit a martial artist every now and again with time to recover to build up his tolerance?  That's fine.  Repeatedly hit him for two months straight, he'll die.

If dwarfs could be injured by a training weapon danger room, thus forcing you to limit their exposure, and creating a cost for using this blatantly superior method of training, I'd be fine with it.

Exactly. For what your getting there's very little threat to get it. Regular military training done right works fast enough anyway.

[NinjaBoot]

The issue there is, how do you distinguish?  A blow from a training spear is a combat action, same as a silver whip.  If you disable training spear experience, then you disable actual combat experience as well.  If you say "no exp from wooden weapons" then what happens when you're at war with the elves?  No soldiers get above proficient because the elves use wooden weapons?  What about "no exp from traps"?  That's a bit more reliable, but can still cause a host of strange problems as exp gain is suddenly choked in strange ways.

Make wooden spears/weapons breakable!

This serves two purposes:

1.  Makes Danger-rooms high maintenance to the point of uselessness (nobody wants to waste wood on training spears amirite?)

2.  Makes Elves even more useless (!!BONUS!!)