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[Dae]

In my previous fortress, there was a sort of curse : if you entered in a mood, then you're just waiting for death. NINE dwarves ALL liking red diamonds asking for cut and uncut gems.

That was harsh.
But that's the game, it isn't that annoying to have a few dwarves dead.

[The Prince]

quote:Originally posted by Stromko:
<STRONG>If you want a challenge you start on a Terrifying Glacier or Desert with no pick, no anvil, and don't build a depot. There is no 'challenge' to losing a random dwarf and having no way to save them, well, aside from locking them into the workshop and waiting for them to starve. [ November 10, 2007: Message edited by: Stromko ]</STRONG>

I disagree.  Having a fey mood occur where I can't fetch the materials is the equivalent of having one of my dwarves somehow get a terminal disease.  I know they're going to die, it's just a matter of time, and meanwhile they're virtually dead anyway.  The other dwarves just have to mourn and then find a way to survive without them.  It's essentially the same thing ... sometimes you just happen to find the "miracle cure" before they pass away.

[Nil Eyeglazed]

quote:Originally posted by BurnedToast:
<STRONG>
There is a difference between being hard and being stupid. Hard is fun when it's fair, and losing is fun when it's because you messed up not because the game decided oops, you lose.
</STRONG>

Okay, of course the same elements of gameplay don't appeal to everyone.  I hear you saying, "I want my game to be fair: I don't want to suffer unavoidable setbacks.  I want to play a game where, if I was only smart enough, I wouldn't lose."

But I think this game is great because it is completely unlike that.  I think that unfairness is part of what's so cool about it.  Sometimes there's a hydra on the map at start up.  Sometimes, your dwarves decide to party when you really, really need something done.  Sometimes, you lose an important dwarf, for no good reason at all, with absolutely nothing you can do about it.  (Well, there is one thing you can do about it: maintain some redundancy, and, throughout the game, ask yourself, "What would happen if this dwarf died?")

Without random crappy stuff happening, I wouldn't enjoy this game.  It would be too easy.  I don't think this game should be like freecell.  I like it as it is, more like solitaire.  Sometimes, the deck is stacked against you.

[Red Jackard]

I'll second BurnedToast here.

Impossible scenarios aren't entertaining. There needs to be at least a slight chance of success for something to be fun.

[Stromko]

Actually having the deck stacked against you is somewhat new, in old Dwarf Fortress you may have to adapt differently to different climates, to deal with elephants or packs of dangerous critters, but as far as resources /within/ the mountain went, you always had some amount of everything.

Now, you could lack anything from certain types or minerals or gems, to not having sand at all, and in many cases you can't trade for it either. You can get bars of metal, but no ore, no sand (or glass for that matter), or a number of other things.

Part of having a setback is learning how to handle it better in the future, but if it's true that Mood dwarves can ask for resources that don't exist on your map, and that you can't trade for, then you really wouldn't learn anything.

I think letting us trade for more things would be the simplest fix. If I was the dwarves and I knew I desperately needed say, sand, or a certain type of gem, I'd ask the merchant to bring me some, and I think they'd do it knowing I'd pay a premium for something that wasn't accessible at my location.

[Buoyancy]

The lack of interesting features and resources on most of the maps in the current version of Dwarf Fortress is one of the worst things about the new version.  At least in the older versions you knew that there was always going to be some kind of engineering challenge to figure out, and that you were guaranteed to have all the materials you would need.  Now you have to spend almost as much time looking for interesting maps to play on as you do playing the game.

[Stromko]

I don't think it's all bad, not having most things on every map, and getting everything being nigh-impossible, creates a kind of holy grail situation. It kind of creates a new game where there wasn't one before, a game where you try to find a good site by determining what the 'sample layers' and other factors in the embark screens mean. What ores does Marble bear, do these Igneous rocks mean there's a volcano? Is a Terrifying map more likely to have a chasm? (It kinda seems to to me).

From what I've read there are visible, strong factors to help you determine what the map might have on it, but how to decode them isn't much known right now.

Would be nice to make lemonade from lemons though, being able to make a viable fortress pretty much anywhere by having more things you can get from the caravan would be a welcome change for me. Being able to stay with a fortress that's lacking its own source of vital resources is itself more of a challenge than just having to abandon and start over on a better site.

[schm0]

Shurhurian: The moody dwarf is asking for a rock block to build the item on, not an unprocessed stone.

[atomicoctobot]

The fact that my dwarves will slowly kill themselves off is one reason why I don't completely severe all contact with the surface. It "enhances" the experience in that sense.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by atomicoctobot:
<STRONG>The fact that my dwarves will slowly kill themselves off is one reason why I don't completely severe all contact with the surface. It "enhances" the experience in that sense.</STRONG>

I think arbitrary attrition is a valid challenge, but the problem is that moods are just so random. In five years, you might be 10 for 10 on moods and have half a dozen or so free legendaries and lots of valuable junk, or you might go 0 for 10 and have ten dead dwarves (plus any additional casualties from berserkers), and it's largely just random which way it turns out.

[atomicoctobot]

quote:Originally posted by RPB:
<STRONG>

I think arbitrary attrition is a valid challenge, but the problem is that moods are just so random. In five years, you might be 10 for 10 on moods and have half a dozen or so free legendaries and lots of valuable junk, or you might go 0 for 10 and have ten dead dwarves (plus any additional casualties from berserkers), and it's largely just random which way it turns out.</STRONG>

Well, I'm only five years into my first game so I can't comment on how disastrous things can ~potentially~ become.

My own experience is that, before getting immigrants, there were no losses to moods. After getting a healthy inflow of immigrants I lose a few here and there and it doesn't count for much in the long run it seems. As long as I keep bringing more dwarves in. Ten dead dwarves doesn't bother me that much over a span of five years since I'd lost twice that many by my 2nd or 3rd year to other things

[Zorromorph]

I don't understand why random things that are beyond your control are a bad thing.  They make the game much better and more realistic IMO.

[Cypherwulfe]

The thing is abotu strange moods, or at least the way I see em, is the Dwarf has ecome a dreamer, or at least for that period. They are magining this immense project, of magic and dwarf crftmanship, specific items have to be acquired. Even if the map they are on doesnt have that resource, and they cannot get it, they have no idea that it isnt beneath them. All they know is, they NEED material x, or else material y wont do what they want.

Now, something interesting happened to me yesterday. I was playing the game, and I had looked at reveal.exe, just because I wanted a peak. Okay, so I cheated. anyway, my boss walks into my shop, and asks me why the game looks different. He had seen me playing before, and asked me why I can now see teh areas I have not mined yet. I told him why and he said, yeah that makes sense. Throughout history, how many gold mines failed, because someone turned right instead of left, or where just in the wrong spot.

The poitn I guess is, if I gave you a pick, and 6 buddies all hauling a keg or two of beer, woud you automaticaly know where to put your mountain hole at? Or would you just look at the dirt samples given, and hope that the presence of such and such a stone means, that such and such a gem is there?

Overall, te realisti bit, of a master artist asking for somethign I cant provide, while annoying, and ok well it pisses me off no end, it doenst bother me out right. The balance of what I can do, with the occasional real life like loss of life to things I cannot control.... Definately makes for a good game.

[Align]

If you always had the materials for a fey mood, you'd have tons of legendary dwarves for no good reason. It's just as well that they balance out.

[Shades]

If you really can't find what that 'inspired' dwarf wants then all you need to do is station some dogs to him or build traps around the workshop. Both are easy enough to do in a short space of time and it limits the worst cause to losing a single dwarf unless your very unlucky.

I mean fair enough if it was your higher skilled engineer, weaponsmith or something, but most other jobs train fast.