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[Levi]

I suppose this test doesn't apply to computer software either, does it? I imagine you could program a computer to recognize it's self, but I wouldn't call that self-awareness, it wouldn't go all sky-net on us if you did. It does seem like a dodgy test of self-awareness.

Good point.  It wouldn't be hard to make a supposedly self aware computer that can recognize its actions in a mirror.

A better test would be to kick an animal, and see if the animal cares or not.  If it doesn't like being kicked, it probably is somewhat aware of itself.

Not necessarily. Even plants react to external stimuli, but they have no central nervous system. Animals are just able to verbalize it and perhaps retaliate. It is aware that it is experiencing external stimuli that its instincts determine to be hostile or at least unfavorable. Perhaps, though, this is simply a difference in the conceptualization of the term "Self-aware."

I'd still say its a much better test than the recognize yourself in a mirror test.  Recognizing that you are in danger or verbalizing that you have been hurt both seem like self awareness to me. 

If the animal just reacted and then promptly forgot about it (like some bugs seem to) then I'd have an easier time believing that it wasn't self-aware.

[UltraValican]

So..I'm guessing I won't eat *dolphin steak*....ever.
I'll support legislation that let's us hunt down and eat the smart little buggers, its them or us.

[Montague]

But living things are evolved, not programed, so the test is being applied under different standards.

The brain can be thought of as type of computer, it's a physical object that computes and calculates things and you could say it's programmed through experience and whatnot.

Humans fail the mirror test until they are about 18 months old, after all. So is something about self-awareness learned? Or is it inherit?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The human brain isn't even finished at 18 months old. It doesn't stop physical growth until you're 25 years old (and continues to change after that until you die, even if it remains the same size). That's part of why we have such a long and arduous development and maturation process. 

[Melagius]

Save the whales, before this turns into that goddamn star trek movie.

[Leafsnail]

Good point.  It wouldn't be hard to make a supposedly self aware computer that can recognize its actions in a mirror.

You could design it to specifically pass that one test, yes.  But dolphins aren't designed to specifically pass the mirror test.  You could throw similar tests of self-awareness at them and they would pass, while your computer-program-designed-to-cheat-one-test would fail.

[Levi]

Good point.  It wouldn't be hard to make a supposedly self aware computer that can recognize its actions in a mirror.

You could design it to specifically pass that one test, yes.  But dolphins aren't designed to specifically pass the mirror test.  You could throw similar tests of self-awareness at them and they would pass, while your computer-program-designed-to-cheat-one-test would fail.

That is true...

But I still think the mirror test is a lousy one.   

[Max White]

~Snip

Good luck telling the Japanese that.
Well, at least they are making the world a safer from potential under water rape murders...

[Fniff]

Yeah... if they are sentient...

Well, they rape and murder.

[Montague]

Good point.  It wouldn't be hard to make a supposedly self aware computer that can recognize its actions in a mirror.

You could design it to specifically pass that one test, yes.  But dolphins aren't designed to specifically pass the mirror test.  You could throw similar tests of self-awareness at them and they would pass, while your computer-program-designed-to-cheat-one-test would fail.

You could program the computer to pass those tests, too. Or it was sufficiently complex to appear self-aware no matter what tests that could be devised. That'd probably make it more self-aware then a human adult, as a human is not even aware of the vast majority of it's own brain functions. At least a computer could spit out some indication of everything it is computing at any given time.

In a sense, if a brain functions as a computer and either can pass tests giving the appearance of self-awareness, who's to say a dolphin is truly capable of thought such as "I think, therefore I exist, as a thing that thinks." or is it just some sort of instinctual or behavioral adaptation? What with the underside of a water's surface tension being reflective and all.

[Frumple]

Eh, yer taking it too far. No real way to test that other humans are capable of "I think, therefore I exist, as a thing that thinks." If you program something that can pass every test of self-awareness a human can, it's as self-aware as a human is. Simple as that ♪

If an animal can pass most or even a fair amount of the self-awareness tests that humans can, then it's at least that self-aware. What we can say, then, is that a mature dolphin is more self-aware than humans at certain stages of development, which is a pretty big thing, really.

[Max White]

While yes, you could design a computer program to pass a specific test, I think that at this point it is a stretch to assume you can program a computer to recognise itself. Partly because the test would exist on the computer, so the mirror would be part of itself, so seeing itself in the mirror would mean it failed the test as it saw the mirror as separate from itself.

That isn't even touching on the reality of programming issues that would be thrown at you.

[lordcooper]

The human brain isn't even finished at 18 months years old. It doesn't stop physical growth until you're 25 years old (and continues to change after that until you die, even if it remains the same size). That's part of why we have such a long and arduous development and maturation process.

[Levi]

While yes, you could design a computer program to pass a specific test, I think that at this point it is a stretch to assume you can program a computer to recognise itself. Partly because the test would exist on the computer, so the mirror would be part of itself, so seeing itself in the mirror would mean it failed the test as it saw the mirror as separate from itself.

That isn't even touching on the reality of programming issues that would be thrown at you.

I was thinking robotic arm and a webcam pointed at a mirror.  That much I'm pretty sure I could do.

[Max White]

I guess it would be possible to make it learn what it is, in the same way living things do... Or at least teach it that anything it does, the mirror arm does. After all, what is the difference between a robotic arm and a mirror, and two robotic arms on the same circuit that mirror each other?