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Author Topic: Making sieges a joke you ignore  (Read 13201 times)

Jacob/Lee

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 07:24:50 pm »

Instead of making barrels out of wood, make pots out of rock at a craftsdwarve's workshop. They're the exact same thing as barrels except less flammable and made out of boulders.

ZetaX

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 07:46:41 pm »

There's a simple way to let immigrants in which doesn't allow passage to enemies.

Build a retracting bridge which dumps whatever is on it safely into your fortress (ie 1z drop). Make the retracting bridge a meeting zone. The retracting bridge should be accessable via a passage from the outside, in the passage, next to the retracting bridge, have a pressure plate set to be triggered by friendlies linked to the retracting bridge. When immigrants come they will unerringly seek out the meeting zone. When they reach the bridge, it will open and dump them inside.

With a little tweak, it should be safe (even from building destroyers destroying the bridge) ageinst all nonflying enemies (flying enemies cause much more problems with a lot of designs):
Below that drawbridge, make another drawbridge, and below that a shaft with whatever dangers in it (magma, spikes, enraged chickens, ...). Retract the lower bridge always except if you actually want to let migrants in (as a matter of fact, both bridges could be on the same lever/pressure plate, you will just need some delay and a not gate); if the upper bridge is destroyed, everything (nonflying) on it falls down the shaft (and hopefully dies).
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Nil Eyeglazed

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 08:32:01 pm »

There's a simple way to let immigrants in which doesn't allow passage to enemies.

Build a retracting bridge which dumps whatever is on it safely into your fortress (ie 1z drop). Make the retracting bridge a meeting zone. The retracting bridge should be accessable via a passage from the outside, in the passage, next to the retracting bridge, have a pressure plate set to be triggered by friendlies linked to the retracting bridge. When immigrants come they will unerringly seek out the meeting zone. When they reach the bridge, it will open and dump them inside.

With a little tweak, it should be safe (even from building destroyers destroying the bridge) ageinst all nonflying enemies (flying enemies cause much more problems with a lot of designs):
Below that drawbridge, make another drawbridge, and below that a shaft with whatever dangers in it (magma, spikes, enraged chickens, ...). Retract the lower bridge always except if you actually want to let migrants in (as a matter of fact, both bridges could be on the same lever/pressure plate, you will just need some delay and a not gate); if the upper bridge is destroyed, everything (nonflying) on it falls down the shaft (and hopefully dies).

Building destroyers don't destroy bridges (at least, they haven't in previous versions).  Nan's method is safe from them.  Nan's technique is excellent, but doesn't allow caravans or diplomats in.

Your addition to it might still be useful for people paranoid of dropping anything that follows the migrants in, although it requires some oversight.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2012, 09:03:01 pm »

Considered mass military service? Sieges for me aren't jokes, but at the end of every single one I'm not asking myself how I'm going to kill them, I'm asking myself how many recruits will die, and how many weapons I'll acquire :P

Splint

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2012, 09:08:39 pm »

Considered mass military service? Sieges for me aren't jokes, but at the end of every single one I'm not asking myself how I'm going to kill them, I'm asking myself how many recruits will die, and how many weapons I'll acquire :P

This
Although I look less at aquired gear and more at number of available punching bags.

Buttery_Mess

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 09:20:35 pm »

Probably the most foolproof method is to station (in whatever manner) elite marksdwarves on your battlements such that they cover all possible entrances to the fort from the map edge. Embark with your back to the sea or a lake for max effectiveness. Section off map edges as much as you can to obstruct sideways movement around the fort. Multiple open entries to fort through long wide tunnels that you can close at will, lined with traps. Or just trap everywhere.
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Kaos

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2012, 09:30:04 pm »

I'm testing a system that will not only make sieges/ambushes/thieves a joke but also will make sure that if they get in my fort they won't be leaving...

There are two issues mainly:
1) After you kill/injure/cage some percentage of enemies in a siege the remaining will turn back and run away...
2) Ambushers once revealed turn back and run away...

as I said I want every last creature in the siege/ambush to not leave...

The only way I think this is possible is to let them come into your fort via the long hallway route, but instead of triggering traps that injure/kill them, dropping them 1 z-level down into a containment chamber, after the last sieger enters and falls you can mass kill them...

The problem are ambushers like kobolds, they don't trigger traps, so they step right on the pressure plate that leads to my retractable bridge drop hallway and they won't drop themselves, so I'm testing this:

In the middle of the dropping hallway I have a dog looking down through a floor grate on a pasture zone, when the kobold gets to the middle of the bridge they get spotted as expected...

what I was also expecting was the same behaviour that happens when an enemy approaches a pastured animal: they leave the pasture and run away... because of that behind the floor grate I placed a pressure plate, thinking that the dog I pastured would spot the kobold ambushing bellow through the floor grate, and then would run away from the pasture, step on the plate and retract the bridge bellow the kobold and drop it into the containment chamber... but noooo, the dog stays put on the pasture zone...  ::)

Maybe it's because the dog wants to attack the kobold instead of running away? I'll try with a pig then... maybe it's because the animal can't path out of the 2x1 room? (the room has a floor grate where the pasture is and the pressure plate, and it's closed by a pet un-passable door..
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wuphonsreach

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2012, 07:16:17 pm »

I'm testing a system that will not only make sieges/ambushes/thieves a joke but also will make sure that if they get in my fort they won't be leaving...

That's my current goal of my entrance design as well.  Goblins check in, but they don't check out.  The trick is to remember how siege squads behave:  If you kill too many of them or their leader too fast, the rest of the squad will bug out and run for the map edge.

My current design is a layered, offset, group of 1-tile wide paths with weak weapon traps.  The goal is to get the goblins/trolls to dodge off the 11-tile (minimum length) path and on to another path 1Z level below that.  And ideally, to get them to fall two or three more times onto lower and lower levels.  If I have two or three parallel paths for foot traffic, then I also have three or four interleaved paths on the Z level below that.

Z-1 - same concept as the surface, but only the last 2-4 tiles before the way back up to the surface is trapped.

Bonus points if you setup a cross-design with the only way back up to the surface in the middle of the cross.  This is simply four open-air pits (11x11 each) with a central stairway downward.  So goblins fall off, onto the walkways, then have to progress to the center of the cross to come back up to the surface.  Then, no matter which way they run, they have to cross 11 tiles worth of weapon traps and avoid falling back down.

I usually run the open-air pits down as far as I can before I hit the caverns.  Eventually, I floor off the bottom 2-5 levels, seal it off from the surface, and use them as "refuse" or "meeting" rooms.  The pits function as a great stone quarry and also as 5Z to 25Z deep pits for killing anything that dodges off of all the catwalks at the top of the shaft.

The rate with my current design is about a 80% kill rate.  Not many goblins/trolls manage to escape alive.  Once I finish 3-4 levels of walkways plus traps, that should go up to about 95%.
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dbay

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2012, 08:04:50 pm »

You can create a 99% trader-safe entrance as follows:
1. Make sure the normal entrance to your fort does not allow wagons
2. dig a 3-wide tunnel to near the edge of the map from your depot
3. ramp up to the surface 3 squares away from the edge.
4. Build drawbridges as walls around the ramped area, and raise them. You can add a roof as well.
5. Profit!
Looks like this:
Code: [Select]
Surface:
BBBBBE
BR###E
BR###E (Traders spawn here)
BR###E
BBBBBE

Z-level -1
#######^
#######^
#######^
<-- to depot

B=raised drawbridge
R=down ramp
#=Floor
E=Edge of the map
^= up ramp

If the only entrance to your depot is through the opening you created, that's the only place the traders will spawn.

Vulnerabilities:
1. Building destroyers can get in
2. There is a small but non-negligible chance that enemies will spawn in the 3-wide area that lets the traders in

Lightningfalcon

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2012, 11:15:26 pm »

-d-
-x-
-D-
-x-
- is a wall, d is a door, x is a set of floodgates, and D is a trade depot.  This design is built into the side of my trap corridor at the very begining.  The first set of floodgates form part of the wall, and is normally left open.  This allows the caravan a path to the depot.  Once they are there, the set facing the trap corridor is closed, and the other floodgate is opened.  The door is mainly there as a backup.   
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Zaik

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2012, 12:20:27 am »

You can build walls to block all entrances into a cave level, then clear out the rest of the wildlife, and make an entire cave layer your tree farm. I've done it with all three before. The first cave is generally pretty easy(bad steel equipped military should be okay), although if it links with the second anywhere you'll want to floor over it.

Also make SURE you wall up EVERY hole, no matter what zlevel it's on. Flying creatures/FBs can still come in if you only wall off the floor.

<----Found that out the hard way. Take a wild guess what jumped the wall

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Scott Cee

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2012, 05:44:39 am »

Forget about the surface altogether.
Completely block off the upper couple of levels of your fort and divert a river/aquifer into them.
Of course this prevents trading altogether, but until underminers are implemented sieges will never bother you again.

Uh, some work required to be able to grow sunberries and other plants of that nature underground, though. Apparently an area that has ever been revealed to sunlight will never lose it's 'light' tag, but I don't know if you can grow aboveground plants on it.

Just keep a stock of sunshine somewhere, forbid it and only break it out on special ocassions.
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I am Leo

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 07:45:40 am »

A series of concentric moats with bridges over the top covered in traps and pressure plate automated drawbridges between the moats that can be remotely activated to make the invaders weave back and forth over the trapped bridges as the path to your fort constantly changes. A siege scale goblin grinder if you will. If you make it big and intricate enough you can lock down wide swathes of the surface to allow safe-ish passage for caravans and immigrants.

Also consider towers with vertical hatch access around the edges of your map, leading down into your fort, which are always kept locked apart from when immigrants arrive narby during a siege.
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crazysheep

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2012, 07:56:09 am »

Uh, some work required to be able to grow sunberries and other plants of that nature underground, though. Apparently an area that has ever been revealed to sunlight will never lose it's 'light' tag, but I don't know if you can grow aboveground plants on it.
Yes, after exposing tiles to sunlight they never turn back to DARK. Floor over the top and it turns to INSIDE, but keeps the LIGHT tag, which is what is needed for aboveground crops, so you can safely farm your berries and other surface plants. More sunberries for everyone!
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Xenos

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Re: Making sieges a joke you ignore
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2012, 02:04:48 pm »

If goblin sieges are all you are worried about a simple trap hallway does fine. I've generally preferred giant spiked balls to serrated discs as you can make them from more metals and there is less mess to clean afterward.

And not as fun to look at after. I want my gobos sliced and diced dammit!
Dig a 25+deep channel and you get your gobbos crushed and they get to help paint the walls on the bottom few levels. :D

Uh, some work required to be able to grow sunberries and other plants of that nature underground, though. Apparently an area that has ever been revealed to sunlight will never lose it's 'light' tag, but I don't know if you can grow aboveground plants on it.
Yes, after exposing tiles to sunlight they never turn back to DARK. Floor over the top and it turns to INSIDE, but keeps the LIGHT tag, which is what is needed for aboveground crops, so you can safely farm your berries and other surface plants. More sunberries for everyone!
IIRC it is possible to switch things to dark/underground by obsidian casting and then carving from the cast?  Or am I way wrong here?
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