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Author Topic: Weapon Damage Properties  (Read 6884 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 01:11:06 am »
As far as I can tell, it's actually a fairly straightforward algebra formula - the energy of the attack is multiplied by modifiers depending on the physical properties of the material of the weapon, a multiplier for how accurate the attack roll was, and divided by contact area of the weapon's shape.   You then subtract the armor's protection value, which is derived from material properties multiplied by thickness of the shape of the armor, and if the total is still positive, the remainder gets to go on to pass through the next layer underneath. 

This applies the same with skin, fat, muscle, bone, and organs - they just offer up a linear amount of resistance, and if you have enough power to keep penetrating, the weapon just keeps going.  Each layer that you pierce will have special reactions based upon their tissue tokens, so piercing the skin at all triggers the pain receptors, and adds the pain value held in the skin to the pain total, which causes creatures to "give in to pain" at values of 100 or more.

This is why three hoary marmots can kill an elephant - they just need to have a bit just barely powerful enough to pierce the skin repeatedly to inflict enough pain to cripple even a massively overpowering foe.
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G-Flex

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 01:14:32 am »
Yeah, pain probably shouldn't stack like that. Either it should stack logarithmically or something (so that five sources of 100 units of pain don't actually hurt 5 times as much), or stack in a manner such that the greatest source of pain matters more than the total (so that five sources of 100 units of pain don't hurt as much as one source of 500 units). I think either one would result in more realistic behavior.
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bobsnewaddress

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 07:18:16 pm »
What would be the best speed/size/contact area ratio in order to get a wooden club type weapon to reliably break bone against a target, even through chain armor?
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 07:47:31 pm »
Ultimate Wooden Club:

Size: 5000 (wood is very light, it could still be several times as heavy without issue but it was getting a bit silly)

Contact Area: 20 (you requested breaking not chipping)
Penetration: doesn't matter
Speed: Larger is better. At 20 contact area you can function at about 3000 speed in this example with clothing. About 5000 for basic armor.

Every factor of 4 you increase size/contact area by, halve velocity.

The way the game is designed, wood weapons are a job if not taken to comical extremes. This could likely be fixed by substantially increasing all weapon sizes and accepting that people will be far too slow to wield them ideally. Honestly, that is probably a good balance idea in most cases.
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bobsnewaddress

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2012, 08:03:32 pm »
Quote from: RysanMarquise on February 25, 2012, 07:47:31 pm
Ultimate Wooden Club:

Size: 5000 (wood is very light, it could still be several times as heavy without issue but it was getting a bit silly)

Contact Area: 20 (you requested breaking not chipping)
Penetration: doesn't matter
Speed: Larger is better. At 20 contact area you can function at about 3000 speed in this example with clothing. About 5000 for basic armor.

Every factor of 4 you increase size/contact area by, halve velocity.

The way the game is designed, wood weapons are a job if not taken to comical extremes. This could likely be fixed by substantially increasing all weapon sizes and accepting that people will be far too slow to wield them ideally. Honestly, that is probably a good balance idea in most cases.

5000! A Maul is only size 1300 and it's a 2 handed beast of a weapon... Does anyone else think that Toady might have undervalued wood slightly? I mean, a baseball bat isn't much bigger than a sword, but it can definitely "drive a skull through the brain, tearing the brain" just as easily as a metal club. Even a helmet usually wouldn't save you from getting a concussion when it comes to that.
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2012, 08:17:32 pm »
There is some complication from the fact that with most weapons you are calculating only the size of the metal section (for an axe, it is the size of the axe-blade, not the whole axe), but for wooden weapons you must properly determine the entire weapon.

At size 5000, a wooden weapon might only weight 2 pounds, while a metal weapon could barely be wielded.

Wood ranges from a density of 400-750, while Iron starts with a density of 7850.

While relationships like this might technically be true, the difference between the weight of an axe and a wooden club don't generally have this level of difference.
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bobsnewaddress

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2012, 08:44:43 pm »
Quote from: RysanMarquise on February 25, 2012, 08:17:32 pm
There is some complication from the fact that with most weapons you are calculating only the size of the metal section (for an axe, it is the size of the axe-blade, not the whole axe), but for wooden weapons you must properly determine the entire weapon.

At size 5000, a wooden weapon might only weight 2 pounds, while a metal weapon could barely be wielded.

Wood ranges from a density of 400-750, while Iron starts with a density of 7850.

While relationships like this might technically be true, the difference between the weight of an axe and a wooden club don't generally have this level of difference.

Very true, I hadn't taken that into account. I was just trying to find ways to make wooden weapons that are somewhat more effective in order to give elf sieges a fighting chance and thought that a quarterstaff would be a good tool for that.

Perhaps if I increase the attack velocity similar to how a whips is done it might work as well -- I've seen some people swing staffs incredibly fast.
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Montague

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2012, 08:52:49 pm »
Wood does seem too light. A wooden shield should be pretty hefty, even compared to a metal one, but they ultimately end up being less then 3 Urists, while metal ones end up being half a dozen times heavier.

Leather also seems to be less useful then it probably would be in real life. We are talking about boiled, oiled, stiff as a board proto-kevlar and yet anything harder then a Dingo's gums cuts right through it like it isn't there.

Probably doesn't help that all leather, reguardless if it came from a dragon or a kitten (or blue jay) shares the exact same physical properties is the same size, density, thickness, ect.

I'm not sure how to 'fix' any of this, but its pretty clear to me that weapons and armor, materials quality and everything needs to be looked over for balance and all.
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2012, 09:07:26 pm »
If leather was armor crafted from Skin, it would be much easier to make it have variable properties. Honestly, I think it would be interesting if that happened.

Wood is indeed much lower in weight, but this means that items made with wood tend to be larger than metal equivalents, often many times as large in total - compared to an object entirely metal.

Additionally, metal items should be already bumping into speed caps. Metal is quite heavy and hard to accelerate. Likewise metal objects are actually heavily encumbering to use. Anyone who has worn chain mail with a  metal sword knows that they are far slower than if they were just wielding a quarter-staff.

Balance points can be tweaked such that this becomes more workable with more clear differences. If you want I suppose I could gradually be working on this.
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bobsnewaddress

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2012, 09:16:33 pm »
Quote from: RysanMarquise on February 25, 2012, 09:07:26 pm
If leather was armor crafted from Skin, it would be much easier to make it have variable properties. Honestly, I think it would be interesting if that happened.

Wood is indeed much lower in weight, but this means that items made with wood tend to be larger than metal equivalents, often many times as large in total - compared to an object entirely metal.

Additionally, metal items should be already bumping into speed caps. Metal is quite heavy and hard to accelerate. Likewise metal objects are actually heavily encumbering to use. Anyone who has worn chain mail with a  metal sword knows that they are far slower than if they were just wielding a quarter-staff.

Balance points can be tweaked such that this becomes more workable with more clear differences. If you want I suppose I could gradually be working on this.

That sounds like a very worthwhile project -- I'd like to see what your findings are in the various departments. How would you fix the leather/skin problem? Would certain creatures just drop different levels of leather, like "Leather+" which offered better protection? Would certain creatures drop no leather at all (is anyone else annoyed by chicken-leather armor?), or weaker leather?

I can also see what you were talking about in terms of the wood-metal problem... the way weapons are designed now in the raws, they are set up to be made from metal, which is so much denser that there is no way that anything made of wood could have the hope of equaling it in terms of damage. Even the densest woods are sort of crappy compared to metal. I suppose modding in a class of wood-only weapons would work.. similar to training spears, except that they actually do damage.

I look forward to seeing your results.
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 09:49:56 pm »
Alright, I can more properly simulate variety of strikes in weapons by granting them a few attacks, some of which are almost strictly better than others. Attack ability to penetrate armor on lucky blows is insufficient right now, that helps open up the range a bit.

Increasing nearly all weapon weights to 5x has close to the desired effects on combat. For two-handed weapons, which would become even harder to use, a small but significant 20% increase in velocity helps counter-act the problems caused by more extreme weight.

This all has the side-effect of making adamantine weapons for more deadly, but I suppose that is fine.

How does this seem so far to people?
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 10:27:36 pm »
Spoiler: What I have so far (click to show/hide)
You get the idea.
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G-Flex

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2012, 01:02:26 am »
Quote from: RysanMarquise on February 25, 2012, 09:07:26 pm
If leather was armor crafted from Skin, it would be much easier to make it have variable properties. Honestly, I think it would be interesting if that happened.

It can be. Check out the leather material template; it draws from the local creature's definition for the material. Creatures just all happen to use the same one.
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2012, 04:06:27 am »
Are you sure?

I am almost entirely certain that it rewrites everything but the source of the leather.
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G-Flex

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Re: Weapon Damage Properties
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2012, 04:19:40 am »
The skin material template has:
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]

And in b_detail_plan_default, in [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS], you have:
[ADD_MATERIAL:LEATHER:LEATHER_TEMPLATE]

So yeah, the leather you get from tanning a hide is specific to the creature, but pretty much every creature with a hide just uses the same leather template material anyway.
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