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Author Topic: so... considering the move from 40d  (Read 7038 times)

miauw62

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 11:19:16 am »

Random idea that just popped into my head due to post above and post above my first post:
What if we were to make some kind of 'compendium' thread and in it link all kinds of !!science!! so people can easily find the !!science!! and !!research!! and use it so that they can use it for more efficient fortresses?
You mean the one linked in Girlinhat's sig?
Arr, i just found that one out, but there doesnt seem too much science in that one.
tough, i was trying it. was about to post it, realized i didnt have enough and just quit.
wasting time. i never get around to doing this kind of stuff :P
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MaskedMiner

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 11:24:29 am »

Whats wrong with legendary migrants anyway?
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Elf Lover

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 11:25:28 am »

Whats wrong with legendary migrants anyway?

They're legendary in the wrong things. Legendary Lye Makers have no purpose here.
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Garath

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 11:27:42 am »

I'm not getting any legendary migrants anymore anyway. Lots of novice fishers and farmers, some carpenters and mason, nothing else much, unless they come from an abandoned fort (yay, my old miner/armorsmith arrived today)
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ancistrus

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 11:49:25 am »

Whats wrong with legendary migrants anyway?

1. Most games initially place you in the situation where your assets are small and worthless, then let you slowly advance and bulid up. Getting a legendary glassmaker in the first year from a migrant wave feels like playing a level 4 fighter and finding a +5 greatsword or getting Mobile Warfare from a goodie hut in 3200BC.

2."High Master" is a title that sounds naturally respectable. A community where half the population is a high master of some trade is an utopia, not a normal thing.

3.I see a red dwarf in a room and I assume it is an engineer. But no, he is actually one of my engravers. His title may be engraver, but he is still red and lister among engineers.
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schismatise

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 12:01:29 pm »

I never actually played 40d, so it's very interesting hearing how different it was.

One small bonus of the very latest version is that you don't get stupid amounts of legendary dwarves anymore, because dwarves are drawn from historical figures. I think if you leave world gen on long enough, you might start getting some skills above level 5, but generally i've been getting level 1-3 farmers/craftsdwarves/fishers/soldiers etc. In a fort of ~80 i have one single Great miller. It's quite cool, i definitely agree it's more fun to have to train your own legendary workers instead; makes it feel like much more of an achievement.
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Shinotsa

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 12:25:02 pm »

2."High Master" is a title that sounds naturally respectable. A community where half the population is a high master of some trade is an utopia, not a normal thing.

3.I see a red dwarf in a room and I assume it is an engineer. But no, he is actually one of my engravers. His title may be engraver, but he is still red and lister among engineers.

A small quip with this. A high volume of high masters among a race that lives for well over a century and that is "fond of industry" doesn't seem so farfetched to me, especially if each of them is highly specialized in a specific skill. If you carved rocks for seventy years I'm sure you'd be great at it.

As for the third point, dwarf therapist and custom professions work wonders. I have professions such as "artist" for certain things like engraving to avoid any confusion with profession titles.
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ancistrus

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 02:11:01 pm »

2."High Master" is a title that sounds naturally respectable. A community where half the population is a high master of some trade is an utopia, not a normal thing.

3.I see a red dwarf in a room and I assume it is an engineer. But no, he is actually one of my engravers. His title may be engraver, but he is still red and lister among engineers.

A small quip with this. A high volume of high masters among a race that lives for well over a century and that is "fond of industry" doesn't seem so farfetched to me, especially if each of them is highly specialized in a specific skill. If you carved rocks for seventy years I'm sure you'd be great at it.

As for the third point, dwarf therapist and custom professions work wonders. I have professions such as "artist" for certain things like engraving to avoid any confusion with profession titles.

2.That is human perspective. Now imagine you are a dwarf in an advanced fortress. You meet 2 legendary engravers and 3 legendary miners on your way from bedroom to eating breakfast. You finish eating and suddenly find out that your son became a legendary woodcrafter earlier in the morning. Then you go to your work which is sparring with 9 other dwarves. All of you are legendary Speardwarfs. It got stupid and boring in Himym and it gets stupid and boring in here.
I am deviating a little from my original point(about migrants) here to point out that a society shouldnt have too many people that are considered extraordinary - it is basically logically impossible.
Now, please notice that I am describing how something feels a little wrong to me - I am not shouting DF SUCKS or trying to start a flamewar.

3. Can it change the color of my dwarf and put him in a different place in the units list?
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Sutremaine

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 05:41:11 pm »

Have most of the nasty bugs/problems (like being unable to spar, and stat/skill rust being crazy fast) been dealt with?

Anybody up to making a "here's what to watch out for" list for me?
Training works pretty well if you bring the right skills. You could wait for migrants as they often come with military skills, but Teacher is one I've never seen often. By the way, I would pick a defensive skill over a weapon skill. Weapon skills train quickly, especially if your dwarf can't be hit while they're figuring out which end of the shiny sharp thing goes in the enemy, and also train quite quickly in sparring. Dodging can be force-trained by stripping dwarves of all their equipment (no parrying, shield blocking, or armour protection. Do this one over the winter...), so that leaves armour and shield use for defence. Dodging is a good skill to have, but it seems to have really high priority when it comes to demonstrations. Bring a Dodger / Teacher and they'll have everyone up to their level by summer, but you won't see much of the other defensive skills.

In later versions of .31, skill rust was related to the amount of skill present. A Novice dwarf would be rusty by the end of Autumn, but a Legendary one would take far longer to start displaying rust. I would presume that still holds true. Skill rust can be slowed or stopped by editing the raws, as can attribute rust. Here are the settings I use:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In short, skill loss is slowed for most skills and disabled entirely for medical skills. Attribute loss is disabled entirely in exchange for extremely slow gains, and strand extraction gives twice as much XP. It doesn't rust either.

Caverns were new in .31. With caverns you are guaranteed magma and pretty much guaranteed water, but Forgotten Beasts will wander onto the map. Some of these are easy to kill, some not so much, and some of them have very nasty attacks that can melt your military. Deadly dust often lives up to its name because it throws cavein dust around and sends all units flying. With caverns I like to map them out before any FBs turn up, so that I know where to dig and also what exactly is on the map underground (stuff will spawn on edges as it does above ground). You can do this with military, or you can drop an animal into the cavern and direct it using meeting zones.

There are also vampires, and you'll need to have a Justice system in place to handle those in-game. At the moment it doesn't work as well as player intervention, because dwarves believe jail time or (ineffective) physical punishment is enough to quell vampiric tendencies. They're said to be quite good lever-pullers and managers because of their lack of physical needs, and their physical strength makes them good fighters.

Infections. Soap. Hospitals. Learn about them.

You can get dwarves that are good enough compared to anything else to be superdwarves if you start with the right dwarves and give them the right equipment. Materials no longer have a flat damage / defence, they have actual physical properties that interact. Your hammer made out of that one metal that's as light as styrofoam and can be sharpened down to the atom? It works about as well as you'd expect. In the case of identical materials, armour will protect better than weapons attack, but go for the best you can anyway. With the exception of blunt adamantine weapons, materials are ranked in roughly the same order as they were before. Changes to the material system also mean that masterwork bone bolts are no longer the equivalent of no-quality iron bolts, but with sufficient skill and quality you can put them through a goblin's iron helm anyway. Since all your civilians can carry crossbows and will use them on hostiles without being trapped in a corner you're going to get that shot eventually if the goblin doesn't die of being turned into a bony sieve.

Dwarven attributes are capped at racial average or 200% of the starting value, whichever is greater. Agility is still the god-stat in DF, since movement speed and action speed aren't separated yet. Disease resistance and healing rate never change, but the former doesn't seem to have much practical effect. The latter does, so try and get fast healers in your military.

.34 also made some changes to water, specifically murky pools. DO NOT allow stagnant water to come in contact with fresh water, it'll pollute the lot. I channelled a 12-tile murky pool into a 4-embark-tile lake and it turned the whole top two layers of the lake into stagnant water (it seems as though flow is required for this. The stagnant water spread out from the channel in a way that matched the cloud of 6/7 water randomly sloshing about. Since this 6/7 water needs to hit a map edge before it's refilled, it's going to get all over the water before the flow stops). Don't run your fresh water through any tiles that have ever contained stagnant water either, stagnancy is tile-based and controlled by a flag that can never be switched back to non-stagnant.

Edit: never mind, I'll put it in the vampire topic.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:41:53 pm by Sutremaine »
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Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Jingles

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 06:22:09 pm »

For building purposes you can do far more in DFVD than in 40d, there is just so much more content to work with.  Given building stuff is mostly why I play I quite enjoy the current version.  It is also undoubtedly more challenging in terms of things that can bring your fort down should you so desire.

Id compare it to moving to higher level software.  Like from paint to Adobe or something like that.  That's what it feels like to me anyways (not quite so extreme but along those lines).

agatharchides

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2012, 06:42:28 pm »

Metal distribution has changed too. Most biomes have only 0-4 metals but if a metal is there it is around in huge amounts.
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2012, 07:07:45 pm »

Is there even anything underground in 40d? I can't remember.
Yep. Magma pipes, bottomless pits, chasms, underground rivers, magma pools and hidden fun stuff.

Jingles

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Re: so... considering the move from 40d
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2012, 07:11:34 pm »

Is there even anything underground in 40d? I can't remember.
Yep. Magma pipes, bottomless pits, chasms, underground rivers, magma pools and hidden fun stuff.
Except they are all in specific areas, getting three of those together is difficult to say the least.  Let alone ones you really want.
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