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[Mushroo]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.

Cool thread... the difference being those dwarfs started with certain skills, whereas mine were completely unskilled. But fascinating nonetheless.

[Splint]

I don't see what you guys are having problems with.
My 5 man teams seem to work fine. usually the ones who aren't sparring are running demonstrations if I have them on full time.

[Loud Whispers]

Okay. Other than that, I'm going to assume I am doing everything right, I suppose.

I only reduced the number because I heard that if the number isn't met, then nobody in the squad trains. Well, I guess that was wrong

You haven't really described the problem so I don't know what to tell you.

If you  leave the number training at the default "10" then it means everyone in the squad will train, whether the squad is 1 dwarf or 10. They will take time off to eat, sleep, etc. but will never perform any civilian duties while the squad is active.

If you change the number to less than the size of the squad, then it means some of the dwarves will be off-duty at any given time and will resume their civilian duties. If they are not Novice in a military skill and/or a civilian skill, then they will get a bad thought when they go on/off duty.

Or they will attempt to start a demonstration and wait for all 10 Dwarves to arrive. Even in squads without 10 Dwarves. So they do nothing.

[Darkweave]

Just wanted to add that waterskins, backpacks and a food/drink stockpile close to the barracks definitely helps, don't skimp on them. I did a fair bit of military testing last Summer and came to the same conclusion as a lot of you - the interface sucks but overall military training is fine. In the end my squads of six were at legendary fighting and almost legendary weapon-use after around 15-18 months of training. I think opinions on the expenditure of embark points need to be adjusted somewhat. Embarking with a military dwarf and some equipment should be the norm.

I have a hypothesis that skill training is skewed because fighting increases from any combat action, weapon-use from attacks made and parrying and also that the order in which defending is calculated is important. I'd assume that first they attempt to parry, if that fails they attempt to block, if that fails it will then go on to dodging and then finally armor.

[Eric Blank]

except armor use has nothing to do with their ability to use armor to defend themselves, but rather lessens the amount that the worn armor reduces their agility.

[Darkweave]

I'm aware of that, but I thought it was only increased by demonstrations or attacks being deflected by armor?

[dirty foot]

I'm aware of that, but I thought it was only increased by demonstrations or attacks being deflected by armor?

I always thought that increased the same way it did for adventure mode, which if I remember correctly was just by virtue of wearing it.

brb, checking wiki

Edit: Nope, only from being attacked while wearing armor. Strange. Its training and actual use do not fall into the same category.

[Psieye]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.

Cool thread... the difference being those dwarfs started with certain skills, whereas mine were completely unskilled. But fascinating nonetheless.

Well, that's the point - demonstrations are a lategame option. They suck until you have dwarves with the relevant demonstration skills. So until then, sparring or live practice are better options.

[Yaotzin]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.

Cool thread... the difference being those dwarfs started with certain skills, whereas mine were completely unskilled. But fascinating nonetheless.

Well, that's the point - demonstrations are a lategame option. They suck until you have dwarves with the relevant demonstration skills. So until then, sparring or live practice are better options.

Is the basic gist of your SCIENCE that skilled demonstrators are the best way to get up the defensive skills, and sparring is the best way to raise the weapon skills?

I'm wondering how to train new recruits in my current situation. I have 2 great soldiers. Legendary in weapon/shield/striker/fighter/observer, and pretty high in everything else, even random stuff like misc. object user.

Would I be best served by having the newbies spar for a while, then move in with the sword masters to receive demonstrations in armor/dodging etc?

[simonthedwarf]

Just wanted to add that waterskins, backpacks and a food/drink stockpile close to the barracks definitely helps, don't skimp on them. I did a fair bit of military testing last Summer and came to the same conclusion as a lot of you - the interface sucks but overall military training is fine. In the end my squads of six were at legendary fighting and almost legendary weapon-use after around 15-18 months of training. I think opinions on the expenditure of embark points need to be adjusted somewhat. Embarking with a military dwarf and some equipment should be the norm.

I have a hypothesis that skill training is skewed because fighting increases from any combat action, weapon-use from attacks made and parrying and also that the order in which defending is calculated is important. I'd assume that first they attempt to parry, if that fails they attempt to block, if that fails it will then go on to dodging and then finally armor.

Backpacks create problems for me. Dwarves carrying food seem to "claim" them, and also sometimes not eat them leaving the food to rot inside the fort creating miasma.

[Psieye]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.

Cool thread... the difference being those dwarfs started with certain skills, whereas mine were completely unskilled. But fascinating nonetheless.

Well, that's the point - demonstrations are a lategame option. They suck until you have dwarves with the relevant demonstration skills. So until then, sparring or live practice are better options.

Is the basic gist of your SCIENCE that skilled demonstrators are the best way to get up the defensive skills, and sparring is the best way to raise the weapon skills?

I'm wondering how to train new recruits in my current situation. I have 2 great soldiers. Legendary in weapon/shield/striker/fighter/observer, and pretty high in everything else, even random stuff like misc. object user.

Would I be best served by having the newbies spar for a while, then move in with the sword masters to receive demonstrations in armor/dodging etc?

More or less, but the ideal situation for demonstrations are impossible: that the teacher knows only one skill and therefore will only ever give demonstrations in that one skill. Furthermore, that the recruits know only that skill too so will never try to give demonstrations themselves. As soon as any sparring is done, soldiers become dabbling at a variety of skills, thus really messing up the demonstration lecture list.

[Sorcerer]

I thought the question raised in this thread was the fact that training and sparring seems to be less broken in this version than it was in 2010.
We all know most people consider 2010 "horribly broken" and want back to the olden days of having half your military incapacitated by training accidents, but that is not the crux of this discussion.
!!Science!! must be done to determine wether or not the 3 man squad is the only way to train or if just putting a bunch of dwarves in the same room together have similar results.

[Mushroo]

If you  leave the number training at the default "10" then it means everyone in the squad will train, whether the squad is 1 dwarf or 10. They will take time off to eat, sleep, etc. but will never perform any civilian duties while the squad is active.

Or they will attempt to start a demonstration and wait for all 10 Dwarves to arrive. Even in squads without 10 Dwarves. So they do nothing.

That's simply not true. Try it and see.

[dirty foot]

I thought the question raised in this thread was the fact that training and sparring seems to be less broken in this version than it was in 2010.
We all know most people consider 2010 "horribly broken" and want back to the olden days of having half your military incapacitated by training accidents, but that is not the crux of this discussion.
!!Science!! must be done to determine wether or not the 3 man squad is the only way to train or if just putting a bunch of dwarves in the same room together have similar results.

I think we should also determine why one is more effective than another, and if we can lobby to have that changed to something more fitting and realistic. A year of training in a group or in pairs should theoretically increase your skill by a large margin either way. I mean, it's a YEAR of straight training. If I spent an entire year just eating, drinking, and fighting; I would be damn good at all three.

It's kind of irritating that our year old military can be so quickly dismembered by a bunch of sociopathic kneecappers or treehugging wooden-sword users. The payoff to using a military is so little now, and it's further exacerbated by the fact that they can very easily die even if well-trained. I understand the realism behind getting arms lopped off and various other traits inherent in attrition, but damn, our military isn't 3000 strong. It's often less than 40 dwarfs, which is still a large percentage of our population NOT contributing to development.

They do NOT train fast enough or efficiently enough to justify their fragility. Our first invasion is often 2 years from the start, which means we have two years to get a decent standing army (not just a few dwarfs to patrol for baby-snatchers). I don't feel like we need our dwarfs to be stronger; I just real like it should be realistic to expect them to be really good at fighting after a year of training, without having to game the system by separating squads out, then reforming them later. Even then, the results are tentative at best.

[Yaotzin]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.

Cool thread... the difference being those dwarfs started with certain skills, whereas mine were completely unskilled. But fascinating nonetheless.

Well, that's the point - demonstrations are a lategame option. They suck until you have dwarves with the relevant demonstration skills. So until then, sparring or live practice are better options.

Is the basic gist of your SCIENCE that skilled demonstrators are the best way to get up the defensive skills, and sparring is the best way to raise the weapon skills?

I'm wondering how to train new recruits in my current situation. I have 2 great soldiers. Legendary in weapon/shield/striker/fighter/observer, and pretty high in everything else, even random stuff like misc. object user.

Would I be best served by having the newbies spar for a while, then move in with the sword masters to receive demonstrations in armor/dodging etc?

More or less, but the ideal situation for demonstrations are impossible: that the teacher knows only one skill and therefore will only ever give demonstrations in that one skill. Furthermore, that the recruits know only that skill too so will never try to give demonstrations themselves. As soon as any sparring is done, soldiers become dabbling at a variety of skills, thus really messing up the demonstration lecture list.

Yeah that's what I figured. We *really* need to be able to designate which soldiers are allowed to demonstrate, and preferably what they can demonstrate in. Then we can make that old messed up cripple into a brilliant teacher

Still even now, things like armor user go up so.slowly. that you kinda need demonstrations from anyone who's good at it.