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[simonthedwarf]

Afraid to use them? You elf. My military would elf you.

[Mushroo]

This thread needs some SCIENCE! I just started a new fortress, made an identical copy, and I'm running 2-dwarf squad vs. 7-dwarf squad to see who trains faster. I'll check in after a year...

[Loud Whispers]

Afraid to use them? You elf. My military would elf you.

Me? Afraid of my using my military?

You haven't seen what I do with my Dwarfs have you  ?

[Mushroo]

Here are the results of SCIENCE after a half-year of training (mid spring through arrival of the 1st caravan in late fall). All dwarfs trained full time and had no military skills to start.

2-man squad:
Expedition leader: Proficient Axedwarf; Talented Fighter; Dabbling wrestler, striker, dodger
Axedwarf: Proficient Axedwarf; Talented Fighter; Dabbling wrestler, striker, dodger, biter

7-man squad:
Expedition leader: Adequate Axedwarf, wrestler, striker; Competent Fighter; dabbling biter, kicker, dodger
Axedwarf: Adequate Axedwarf, wrestler, striker; Competent Fighter; dabbling dodger
5 wrestlers: On average Competent fighters and Adequate wrestler/strikers

What did we learn from this experiment? It was inconclusive because I didn't have 7 axes! This diluted the skills by cross-training in axe and wrestling. I will need to repeat the exercise again with 7 axes (or all wrestlers) to make a more accurate comparison.

One thing I can say definitively is that a large group of unskilled recruits can be easily trained to competent fighters in half a year. (With starting skills and/or a good teacher, they'll train even faster.) Therefore I really don't understand the "training is too slow  in DF!!!" criticisms. What is the correct number of months to become a Competent fighter in your opinion for this criticism to go away? 5 months? 4 months? 1 month? A week? A day???

[Loud Whispers]

I agree with Mushroo on this one, seems like people didn't really give training a go before they took on danger rooms :/

[madjoe5]

So what schedule is most effective? I have generally used larger squads (7-10) dwarves, and put them onto the default "Active/Training" alert thats already in the military interface. Sometimes, I switch the order to "Train, 1 minimum" or something like that. Usually when I do that, I have about half of the soldiers doing Indiv. Combat Drills, and the other half with "No Job," sitting in my meeting hall.

I don't think I have ever seen them spar. Occasionally, they set up a demonstration, but almost always do individual stuff. Am I doing something wrong?

[Mushroo]

So what schedule is most effective? I have generally used larger squads (7-10) dwarves, and put them onto the default "Active/Training" alert thats already in the military interface. Sometimes, I switch the order to "Train, 1 minimum" or something like that. Usually when I do that, I have about half of the soldiers doing Indiv. Combat Drills, and the other half with "No Job," sitting in my meeting hall.

I don't think I have ever seen them spar. Occasionally, they set up a demonstration, but almost always do individual stuff. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, you are doing something wrong... they cannot Spar unless there are 2 or more dwarves training.

[madjoe5]

So what schedule is most effective? I have generally used larger squads (7-10) dwarves, and put them onto the default "Active/Training" alert thats already in the military interface. Sometimes, I switch the order to "Train, 1 minimum" or something like that. Usually when I do that, I have about half of the soldiers doing Indiv. Combat Drills, and the other half with "No Job," sitting in my meeting hall.

I don't think I have ever seen them spar. Occasionally, they set up a demonstration, but almost always do individual stuff. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, you are doing something wrong... they cannot Spar unless there are 2 or more dwarves training.

So, what exactly should I do then? I have no idea how to get them to work right... 

[Mushroo]

So, what exactly should I do then? I have no idea how to get them to work right... 

Don't set your number training to 1; leave it at 2 or higher (I leave it at 10 personally).
If only 1 dwarf is training, he/she will not have a sparring partner.

[madjoe5]

So, what exactly should I do then? I have no idea how to get them to work right... 

Don't set your number training to 1; leave it at 2 or higher (I leave it at 10 personally).
If only 1 dwarf is training, he/she will not have a sparring partner.

Okay. Other than that, I'm going to assume I am doing everything right, I suppose.

I only reduced the number because I heard that if the number isn't met, then nobody in the squad trains. Well, I guess that was wrong

[Mushroo]

Okay. Other than that, I'm going to assume I am doing everything right, I suppose.

I only reduced the number because I heard that if the number isn't met, then nobody in the squad trains. Well, I guess that was wrong

You haven't really described the problem so I don't know what to tell you.

If you  leave the number training at the default "10" then it means everyone in the squad will train, whether the squad is 1 dwarf or 10. They will take time off to eat, sleep, etc. but will never perform any civilian duties while the squad is active.

If you change the number to less than the size of the squad, then it means some of the dwarves will be off-duty at any given time and will resume their civilian duties. If they are not Novice in a military skill and/or a civilian skill, then they will get a bad thought when they go on/off duty.

[Niccolo]

In 28.x sparring and military were working completely, soldiers equipped what you assigned them, they were always sparring and improving, they were always using archery ranges. 0.31.x new military system was completely broken.

It's sad that even 2 years after 0.31.x, with the new 0.34.x the military training system always feels broken, soldiers that don't even try to spar and prefer to train individually (and so useless in term of improving) , marksdwarf that will never use the archery range etc...

But at least in 0.34.x soldiers equip their assigned weapons before going to fight monsters, as in 0.31.x i more than often had my squads rushing without them and trying to wrestle goblins that came with spears/swords/wips, always ending in the wrestlers all dead in a few seconds.

So indeed 0.34.x military works much better than 0.31.x, but it's not yet at the level of fully working like it was in 0.28.x

Military is coming - unless it distracts Toady, there is due to be a military arc in the updates sometime soon (Soon being a relative term when talking about the DF development cycle, of course).

[madjoe5]

Okay. Other than that, I'm going to assume I am doing everything right, I suppose.

I only reduced the number because I heard that if the number isn't met, then nobody in the squad trains. Well, I guess that was wrong

You haven't really described the problem so I don't know what to tell you.

If you  leave the number training at the default "10" then it means everyone in the squad will train, whether the squad is 1 dwarf or 10. They will take time off to eat, sleep, etc. but will never perform any civilian duties while the squad is active.

If you change the number to less than the size of the squad, then it means some of the dwarves will be off-duty at any given time and will resume their civilian duties. If they are not Novice in a military skill and/or a civilian skill, then they will get a bad thought when they go on/off duty.

Well, I guess I should have been more clear: I don't want them to have off time. Ideally, they would just train all day, and only stop for a drink/food/sleep/injury. No matter what configuration I set up my alerts/schedules or whatever, I still get half or so of the dwarves just standing around doing nothing.

Is it even possible to have them train round the clock?

[Mushroo]

What does it say exactly next to the dwarves that are not doing what you want them to do? Best advice I can give is go step by step through the Wiki and check you haven't forgotten some step (like assigning them to a weapon rack or barracks to train, I always forget that one).


Here is more SCIENCE!!!!!

A new fortress, Play Now options, no military skills, 7 wooden training axes (and 1 wooden shield by accident).

After 11 months of constant training (1st month was spent constructing the barracks, gathering plants, making wooden axes, etc.) here are the results:

FORT A1
Squad of 2: Legendary, Legendary
Squad of 3: Accomplished, Accomplished (plus Prof. Shield), Proficient
Squad of 1: Skilled
Squad of 1: Skilled

FORT A2 (exact copy of Fort A1 but all in one squad)
Squad of 7: Adept, Talented, Proficient x4, Skilled

Conclusion: Squad of 2 is the winner! But even the worst training schedule gets them to Skilled in 1 year, I think this is not as horribly broken as some would claim.

[Psieye]

Rewording Edit:

Previous !!SCIENCE!! on military training.