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[dirty foot]

Well it works, because you can do 2-3 man squads and they'll spar which works fine.

Hopefully Toady fixes teaching (so the guy with dabbling in dodging doesn't try teach it to the proficient one...), then larger squads should work out nicely. An option for something like "prefer learning/prefer sparring" would be good too. Have them learn while they're nubbins then switch to sparring when they're pretty good.

Sparring should only produce good results once the basics are down, ie they're at least competent.

I actually like that there's confusion right now in "who's in charge". Since there's really no expected leader in these situations, dwarf personality takes over. There might be a really skilled dwarf sitting in the squad not teaching, but it makes sense because his personality is "doesn't like to help others," and "often dislikes doing more work than necessary."

[dirty foot]

Lacks polish? It's the real Hell, just in menial labour form targeted at the player.

Oh man, and we haven't even mentioned the lack of squad names or other lacking functionality of the military screens. Nothing like guessing if the Caverns of Threating or Deeply Shielded Flowers is your axes or your hammers.

Having to browse through every dwarf on a list ingame each time you want to assign a new one to a slot in the squad, dwarf therapist not allowing you to assign dwarfs to squads, not being able to browse military and civilian skills at the same time so you dont end up making your noble/bookkeeper/trader/metalsmith/legendary brewer into a recruit. Or end up drafting a hunter/miner/woodcutter which messes up his uniform.

And what about the fact that a uniform sword weapon will cause the dwarf to show up as a "no relevant skills" even if he has legendary speardwarf. Its however possible to deal with by having the uniform without weapon assigned so you can browse them with weapon skills showing, and then you have to assign a weapon to every last one of them.

If only the "individual choice" wasn't actually "random quality and random type of weapon in the fortress" instead "best quality weapon of the type i am most skilled with". 

Or what about military dwarves leaving their rotten plump helmets all over the barracks if you enable individual or squad equipment, which you have to manually dump because they are "claimed".  ARCHERY targets broken in the most recent version, injuriy creating job cancellation spam, dwarves who will either rest forever or not at all having yellow injuries annoying you to death.

Seriously the military system even though I use it in 100% of my forts is one of them most time consuming shit to wade through in DF. And the product is either clearly overpowered dwarves or wuzzes that get strangled by a single troglodyte.

 

The lack of proper interface is just terrible. I've complained about it for over a year now, but people have accepted this as being a standard for the game. To be honest, Toady seems more than happy to oblige the need for more content as well. Can't say I blame him though; I doubt people would donate as much for streamlined GUI or performance optimization in lieu of more content. The real money in any game development is novelty.

[Loud Whispers]

To clear this up, large squads occasionally engage in multiple sparring sessions, but is still not nearly as efficient as 3 man squads set to spar.

[dirty foot]

To clear this up, large squads occasionally engage in multiple sparring sessions, but is still not nearly as efficient as 3 man squads set to spar.

Which makes zero sense.

[Loud Whispers]

To clear this up, large squads occasionally engage in multiple sparring sessions, but is still not nearly as efficient as 3 man squads set to spar.

Which makes zero sense.

10 people set to spar in 1 squad = At most 4 sparring, and 2 most of the time anyways. Expect mass demonstrations. Sometimes is the desired effect.
3 three man squads with two set to train = At least 6 sparring constantly.

[Mr Frog]

For me, at least, the big question is now whether the (possibly-apocryphal, though I have absolutely no reason to doubt it) benefits of using 3-dwarf squads outweighs the psychological torture of having to individually station 10-20 squads every time a siege comes around (no, I was not aware of this strategy. I live under a rock, you see).

Is there a !!SCIENCE!! thread for this? If so, can someone post a link to it? I want numbers.

[Loud Whispers]

station 10-20 squads

Hold down shift/Caps lock and highlight each squad letter to station multiple squads.

[Mr Frog]

station 10-20 squads

Hold down shift/Caps lock and highlight each squad letter to station multiple squads.

*.*

I haven't felt this giddy since I learned about mass designation. Thank you. THANK YOU.

They'll still gain skill quickly even though they'll occasionally do demonstrations instead of sparring, right? Or is there some trick to stop that which I'm also unaware of?

[Carnes]

To clear this up, large squads occasionally engage in multiple sparring sessions, but is still not nearly as efficient as 3 man squads set to spar.

Assuming that you only have a 10dwarf squad scheduled for training, then yes.  But a full squad should really only be 1/3 training, 1/3 off duty, and the remaining 1/3 on patrol or guarding a burrow.  This way they rotate in & out of various duties and get some time off, if they want it.

If you prefer 3 man squads, you could always have 3 squads and a rotating schedule with only 1 order.  But the micro is higher and does exactly what a full squad does on a schedule with multiple orders. 

Station orders and kill orders will go much faster with full squads.  Also the impact of lost dwarves is less unless 1/3 of the squad is killed (no more time off).

[Sutremaine]

In 28.x sparring and military were working completely, soldiers equipped what you assigned them, they were always sparring and improving, they were always using archery ranges. 0.31.x new military system was completely broken.

Sparring in .28 was flat-out fighting in which dwarves would kill each other if you didn't nerf their weapons, which made them unsuitable for deployment. A lightly-bruised spine would prevent dwarves from ever sparring again. You couldn't specify weapon or armour material, or give priority to particular squads. You couldn't assign individual armour items, only three different armour levels plus a shield / buckler option. Dwarves that reached Elite level could never be returned to civilian life. Civilians couldn't carry weapons (although I do remember mods involving ranged weapons with no ammo created for them, or something similarly hacky).

.28 was quicker at training totally unskilled dwarves and more efficient when you wanted an individual dwarf to go somewhere or kill something, but in all other respects it sucks compared to .31 and above.

[Loud Whispers]

Assuming that you only have a 10dwarf squad scheduled for training, then yes.  But a full squad should really only be 1/3 training, 1/3 off duty, and the remaining 1/3 on patrol or guarding a burrow.  This way they rotate in & out of various duties and get some time off, if they want it.

If you prefer 3 man squads, you could always have 3 squads and a rotating schedule with only 1 order.  But the micro is higher and does exactly what a full squad does on a schedule with multiple orders. 

Station orders and kill orders will go much faster with full squads.  Also the impact of lost dwarves is less unless 1/3 of the squad is killed (no more time off).

1. Only 1/3 off duty, 1/3 on patrol, 1/3 training. Only 1/5 sparring. Turn that into a 3 man squad, 2/3 sparring. 2 Man squad, 100% sparring. Happiness issues mean this should only 2/2 done with legendary soldiers who frequently kill though. If you want a large skilled military, you won't be wasting professional military Dwarfs on being off duty or patrolling.
2. 2/3 allows for constant sparring and any of the three to opt out for a break whenever they want to.
3. Micro = Copy order + Paste?
4. Caps locks/Shift key = More squad control, without having to individually select squad members. Sounds like less key mashing to me
5. If Dwarfs are killed, it's not that hard to make that squad off duty and assign the survivors to another squad 

2/3 squads are for people who want to set up a professional military, as these Dwarfs will likely never be functioning civilians again. 10 man squads are more for civilian militia/cross training.

[Mushroo]

My Legendary dwarves are training just fine, what game are y'all playing?

I usually prefer the 2-3 man squads (because I don't believe in a huge military) but when I do experiment with 10 man squads I see that they break down into groups of 2-3; some spar, some do wrestling demonstrations, some work on their dodging skills, etc.

In all cases my soldiers make it to at least Competent (and sometimes much, much higher) within a year; I really don't see the problem... ?

[Carnes]

I don't think we'll agree on this but off-duty time is very important, imo.  The 1/3 off-duty includes the soldiers who are sleeping, hospitalized (temporary), or dead.  And yes there is more micro with 20x3 dwarf squads versus 6x10 dwarf. 

I have a feeling though that it is play style that is the main difference.  I use dwarves to patrol the surface and kill ambushes as well as guarding essential areas such as cavern entrances, surface entrance, and meeting zone.  If you rely on traps to manage your entrance, you won't need those burrows guarded.  But for me, if a squad falls below six dwarves then something will likely be under-defended.  And setting a whole squad inactive because one died and one in the hospital will certainly lead to an under-defended fort.

If you only use your squads for kill orders, it doesn't matter how full they are and off-time becomes less important.

I disagree that it is a waste to have a professional military on patrol.  That is exactly what a professional military should be doing (finding and killing hostiles).  A novice military should be training more than a professional one.  A highly skilled military that does nothing is a waste.  And sending in the skilled military after the siege already broke on the trap corridor and is running away is also a waste.. the siege was already defeated.  Dealing with FBs, giants, and titans usually only takes one decent squad too (entrance guards or the patrol deals with it automatically).

[Mushroo]

I agree with Carnes; don't train legendary soldiers and then be afraid to use them!

60 soldiers, though... wow, that's a lot!

[Loud Whispers]

I don't think we'll agree on this but off-duty time is very important, imo.  The 1/3 off-duty includes the soldiers who are sleeping, hospitalized (temporary), or dead.  And yes there is more micro with 20x3 dwarf squads versus 6x10 dwarf. 

Make the squad inactive and reassign the spare Dwarfs. At most you have to move 2 Dwarfs.

And setting a whole squad inactive because one died and one in the hospital will certainly lead to an under-defended fort.

Which is why you move the spare Dorfs to one of the other squads

If you only use your squads for kill orders, it doesn't matter how full they are and off-time becomes less important.

Off duty time really isn't that important for a professional military that does nothing other than fight. They pretty much only need it to eat, drink and sleep.

I disagree that it is a waste to have a professional military on patrol.  That is exactly what a professional military should be doing (finding and killing hostiles).

...We are talking about soldiers, not guards right?

  A novice military should be training more than a professional one.  A highly skilled military that does nothing is a waste.

A high skilled military that's training within the fortress, ready to respond to threats is not a waste >:|

  And sending in the skilled military after the siege already broke on the trap corridor and is running away is also a waste..

Don't use traps

Dealing with FBs, giants, and titans usually only takes one decent squad too (entrance guards or the patrol deals with it automatically).

Don't use patrols, fight fully grown megabeasts. Embark on an evil biome with husks.

I agree with Carnes; don't train legendary soldiers and then be afraid to use them!

3 man squads gets you the military in the first place ;P