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[Neonivek]

Some animals I can imagine being "Generic man" such as all snakes, most birds, and some rodents.

The issue is that I wouldn't put everything into it. A Penguinman seems better as a Penguinman over a Avianman. A Capabaraman is better as that instead of a Rodentman.

[King Mir]

If you merge animal men into generics, like birdmen, you'd probably want to keep the traits from the specific species. So there would still be hawk-men, but they could breed with eagle men to form hawk-eagle men hybrids. All of them would be labeled as birdmen.

[Grek]

I'd be cool with having generic birdmen, bugmen, reptilemen and so forth that have a procedual description like "A <good|evil|savage|uncivilized|whatever> humanoid found <deep underground|in the wilds>. This one appears most similiar to a <species>." It has <insert current body descriptions here>

[WillowLuman]

Some animals I can imagine being "Generic man" such as all snakes, most birds, and some rodents.

The issue is that I wouldn't put everything into it. A Penguinman seems better as a Penguinman over a Avianman. A Capabaraman is better as that instead of a Rodentman.

Exactly! Wasn't suggesting genericizing all animalmen, but maybe combining some of the specific subspecies into one, like say just parrot men instead of kea men and others.

[Sowelu]

I'd be way more interested in just giving each site a narrower variety of *men.  Also, allowing real animals on the map at the same time as them.  :V

[Vattic]

I'd be way more interested in just giving each site a narrower variety of *men.  Also, allowing real animals on the map at the same time as them.  :V

This combined with a suggestion I made in another thread.

The prevalence of Animalmen is a bit disturbing. I for one would prefer if they took on a kind of kobold-like psuedo-civilization that is tied to the environment the templated creature lives in. Sites would get raided occasionally by Animalmen, but only as raids or sieges, and the Animalmen would not replace "real" wildlife.

Or even make them similar to the underground animal men but above ground. Ideally both underground and overground animal men will be expanded some. I'd like to see them ambush our dwarves and similar. Having them get angry at you killing their non-animal kin would be nice. Shouldn't elves recruit them during wars?

[irmo]

I'd be way more interested in just giving each site a narrower variety of *men.  Also, allowing real animals on the map at the same time as them.  :V

Yeah. Just pick ten or so animal species per world that will have *men varieties, and generate a tribe of each of those.

[catoblepas]

I think a lot of them would be better handled as castes within more generic umbrella species. This way we could have a 'lizard man' who has iguana characteristics, and another 'lizard man' who has gila monster characteristics, and another that is similar to a Komodo dragon. It would be interesting running into warbands or camps of these sorts of creatures with all their different varieties. It would help make them seem unique, without overcrowding everythign with the multitude of sometimes too specific animal-subspecies-men.

My 2 cents.

[Hylas]

Yes. My two cents follows. Actual suggestions in bold. Spoilered because it's long.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are too many animalmen and giant animals. I think this is part of a larger problem with savage areas being not as flavorful as they could be--just having bigger and humanoid versions of normal wildlife rather than truly 'exotic' stuff (e.g., giant lion/tiger rather than something like cave lion/sabertooth tiger).

I think a lot could be done with castes.

In many of the Threetoe stories, animal men serve as sort of big brother protector figures for the population of their normal animal counterparts. One way to achieve this sort of thing would be to make a humanoid version of whatever animal a rare-ish caste of that animal. So, occasionally you'd see a herd of horses watched over by a horse-man. Caste frequency seems to be more finely tune-able than general creature frequency, but I'm not really a rawmancer.

Biome tokens should be able to be specified for different castes of the same creature. I don't think they can be, but I'm not sure. If they were, one could specify that a humanoid caste of a creature would only occur in savage areas. One could also do interesting things that would add regional flavor, like having a single wolf creature with a normal wolf caste for benign regions, a warg caste for evil regions, dire wolves and wolf-men for savage regions, rainbow sparkle wolves for good regions, and ice wolves for cold biomes. Interbreeding them to get hybrids would be interesting, but would probably require an overhaul of how either breeding or castes work.

You could (haven't tried it in this version) talk to animal men if you were an elf adventurer (or anyone else with the at peace with wildlife tag modded in), but they didn't have much to say and wouldn't join you. That sucks, I really think elves should be able to recruit a posse of animal-men to go beat up a night troll. (Elves are, after all, generally associated with huge posses.)

Another idea would be to make animal men unique historical figures, via some sort of interaction from a regional force, like were- and vampire curses from gods, but benefical. "In 123, Falethewi, a regional force associated with dirt and sticks, elevated the moose Afwei to a moose-man because of his noble antlers and charged him with guarding the Glen of Glitter in the Fancy Forest."

[RabidAnubis]

What are you talking about Jothki?  That's what the thread is about, reducing the frequency of Animal Man encounters, or at least controlling them in some way to make the experience more immersive.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Toady made animal men rarer but able to form small civilizations.  If any Animal Men civilization prospered enough, then they would be given a random new species name and that species would then be able to make major civilizations like the Elves, Humans, Dwarves, etc.  And then they could also be chosen for adventuring.  But only if it happens during world gen or something.  But this would keep each world unique, because while all worlds would likely have some amount of Elephant Men, not all worlds would have Elephant men be capable of creating civilizations or being available for adventuring.

I agree with this post.

Make them exist, but most of them in smaller amounts.

[catoblepas]

Another consideration is that perhaps animal men, or at least the more specific species-men, could be reserved for deities. A lot of earth religions have deities that are hybrids of man/woman and animal, including some very specific species. This sort of thing could help flesh out gods without getting rid of the -men completely. This way gods could have a diverse range of appearances, and there would be appropriate bodies for their avatars on the mortal realm as well as their minions. Meanwhile, more generic men like lizard men would still have their own niche as minor pseudo-civs the same way they do now, without cluttering up the maps with multitudes of unbutcherable animal men.

[irmo]

If you merge animal men into generics, like birdmen, you'd probably want to keep the traits from the specific species. So there would still be hawk-men, but they could breed with eagle men to form hawk-eagle men hybrids. All of them would be labeled as birdmen.

That just puts us back where we started.

If there are hawk-men in your world, there should not be eagle-men. They fill the same niche.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And if there are hawks in the world there shouldn't be eagles? But they fill the same niche!

[catoblepas]

If you merge animal men into generics, like birdmen, you'd probably want to keep the traits from the specific species. So there would still be hawk-men, but they could breed with eagle men to form hawk-eagle men hybrids. All of them would be labeled as birdmen.

That just puts us back where we started.

If there are hawk-men in your world, there should not be eagle-men. They fill the same niche.

There would not be hawk-men or eagle-men. there would only be bird men, some of which would have eagle-like characteristics, while others would have hawk-like characteristics. It's a win-win situation where birdmen get diverse appearances and traits, without cluttering up the world map with dozens of varieties of bird-men. This way, encountering animal men will be a more memorable event, and won't lead to them being more prevalent than the animals they represent in some cases.

[WillowLuman]

If you merge animal men into generics, like birdmen, you'd probably want to keep the traits from the specific species. So there would still be hawk-men, but they could breed with eagle men to form hawk-eagle men hybrids. All of them would be labeled as birdmen.

That just puts us back where we started.

If there are hawk-men in your world, there should not be eagle-men. They fill the same niche.

There would not be hawk-men or eagle-men. there would only be bird men, some of which would have eagle-like characteristics, while others would have hawk-like characteristics. It's a win-win situation where birdmen get diverse appearances and traits, without cluttering up the world map with dozens of varieties of bird-men. This way, encountering animal men will be a more memorable event, and won't lead to them being more prevalent than the animals they represent in some cases.

I think combining all animal men into one species, or even combining all birds into one species, is taking it to the extreme. I think it would be better if we had hawk men and eagle men, instead of (just for example) golden eagle men + stellar eagle men. and red-tailed hawk men + kestrel men.