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Author Topic: Good regions being painfully good  (Read 88615 times)

orius

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2012, 09:33:15 pm »

Or more simply, it's a fantasy-themed game so don't think too hard about it.

After all, a Toad did it.  ;)
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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2012, 09:20:35 am »

Eternal bliss for the dwarfs living there.

Which essentially translates to eternal ecstatic "on break"-dom for those affected. :P
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Neonivek

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2012, 10:25:27 am »

Or more simply, it's a fantasy-themed game so don't think too hard about it.

After all, a Toad did it.  ;)

Yes but it is trying to be a "Simulation" so we can't give it too much leeway.
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FaultyLogic

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2012, 10:49:35 am »

Why should "good" forces convert your dwarves into murder machines? that... does not sound good at all.

If anything, I think good regions should be even less dangerous and more survivable then they are now... that way the game has a built in difficulty option of sorts. Embark on good regions as a newbie or when you just want to screw around, embark on evil when you want !!fun!!, and embark on normal for in-between.

Exactly! It would be a very nice way of changing the difficulity without using a boring toggle that just makes goblins weaker and blind or whatnot (not that this would ever be implemented). While there should of course always the the possibility of some good old dwarven Fun, there could also be very cheap benefits like healing rain, hapiness-inducing friendly clouds or helpful spirits that would aid your dwarves in mysterious ways (wild suggestan here). 
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Neonivek

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2012, 01:15:26 pm »

I don't know, logically shouldn't this mean EVERYONE would want to destroy your fort for being the only fort allowed to exist on good lands?

Goblin, Elf, and Humans (and Dwarves) working together to take your land. With dieties hating you for defiling such pure lands, demons wanting to corrupt it, as well as your dwarves becoming ill from their own impure thoughts.
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WillowLuman

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2012, 07:20:01 pm »

I don't know, logically shouldn't this mean EVERYONE would want to destroy your fort for being the only fort allowed to exist on good lands?

Goblin, Elf, and Humans (and Dwarves) working together to take your land. With dieties hating you for defiling such pure lands, demons wanting to corrupt it, as well as your dwarves becoming ill from their own impure thoughts.

Again, logically, why should good areas be murderously difficult? As for gods, well, the patron diety of this game is the god of blood. Evil regions are practically hallowed gods like that.
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Neonivek

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2012, 07:35:51 pm »

I don't know, logically shouldn't this mean EVERYONE would want to destroy your fort for being the only fort allowed to exist on good lands?

Goblin, Elf, and Humans (and Dwarves) working together to take your land. With dieties hating you for defiling such pure lands, demons wanting to corrupt it, as well as your dwarves becoming ill from their own impure thoughts.

Again, logically, why should good areas be murderously difficult? As for gods, well, the patron diety of this game is the god of blood. Evil regions are practically hallowed gods like that.

I explained why.

Simply because this is such a beneficial, pure, and good land... that EVERYONE wants you dead for living there.

Why wouldn't they? Especially gods of blood who find these lands created by their sacrifice to be absolutely sacret to the lifeblood of the world.

I can flip your logic easily. Especially since "Armok" doesn't exist. Armok is a diety in a specific Dwarf Fortress setting.

If you object to good lands being outright harmful because they need to be beneficial. Then I present that good lands are indirrectly harmful because of how outright beneficial they are. Simple economics and one proven historically by almost every war ever fought.

We can even go further and say that good lands are "good" and that living there makes you a target as well because you are defiling what is considered "good" and "pure".
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:47:49 pm by Neonivek »
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loose nut

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2012, 08:03:43 pm »

Couple more ideas:

- in good areas the sun is extra bright, making the dwarves extra sick

- in good areas, dwarves are more likely to get religion, not that that causes substantial effects yet
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2012, 08:17:16 pm »

Especially since "Armok" doesn't exist.

Things in Dwarf Fortress bleed. This is proof enough of Armok.

Couple more ideas:

- in good areas the sun is extra bright, making the dwarves extra sick

Making cave adapt creatures vomit everywhere... Beautiful :P

bombzero

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2012, 09:20:56 pm »

i was gonna post something here, but then i realized it stupid arguing on these forums, everyone is dead set in their ideas with no willingness for change.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2012, 09:23:21 pm »

i was gonna post something here, but then i realized it stupid arguing on these forums, everyone is dead set in their ideas with no willingness for change.

Since when? I don't see many challenging core beliefs cropping up anywhere ;)

bombzero

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2012, 09:30:59 pm »

i was gonna post something here, but then i realized it stupid arguing on these forums, everyone is dead set in their ideas with no willingness for change.

Since when? I don't see many challenging core beliefs cropping up anywhere ;)

meh, just i have yet to see someone actually accept a different opinion on a matter yet  ::)

anyways as a side note, read before posting people, i just read 7 pages of the same 10 ideas.


on the topic of good regions though, many widely stigmatized religions (i.e. paganism) are often outcasted by major religions due to believing that heaven is not truly 'good' and hell is not truly 'evil'.

many people are not taking savagery into account with their suggestions, benign evil regions aint that bad. savage good regions can be a living hell. though i believe someone made a suggestion about that reflecting in the features of good regions a few pages back.
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catoblepas

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2012, 02:22:56 am »

i was gonna post something here, but then i realized it stupid arguing on these forums, everyone is dead set in their ideas with no willingness for change.

Since when? I don't see many challenging core beliefs cropping up anywhere ;)

meh, just i have yet to see someone actually accept a different opinion on a matter yet  ::)

anyways as a side note, read before posting people, i just read 7 pages of the same 10 ideas.


on the topic of good regions though, many widely stigmatized religions (i.e. paganism) are often outcasted by major religions due to believing that heaven is not truly 'good' and hell is not truly 'evil'.

many people are not taking savagery into account with their suggestions, benign evil regions aint that bad. savage good regions can be a living hell. though i believe someone made a suggestion about that reflecting in the features of good regions a few pages back.

Well I for one included savage good regions in my suggestion  :). I think there are plenty of ways to make [GOOD] regions more challenging in a way that diverges from [EVIL] regions, and further ways that [SAVAGE][GOOD] can diverge from [SAVAGE][BENIGN] Benign should of course be peaceful, and probably the safest sort of palce to set up a fort. This can be accomplished bythings like faster growing plants and trees, peaceful wildlife, and helpful elves. Being a magical area however, forts that indulge in overhunting, overlogging, strip mining. elf murder, etc could suffer setbacks. being a benign region, these would best be served as passive ways of making the fort hardder to maintain. Plants would become bitter and nasty in taste to the dwarves, making them unhappy to eat them, animals would avoid the area. rain would not fall on the dwarves, elves would not trade, wood would splinter when worked, axes and picks would shatter when used, etc. Evil areas seem to be naturally adverse to the living, benign good areas should just encourage you to abandon, but only if your dwarves are behaving badly.

For savage good areas, there are other ways that this sort of thing can be dealt with. Faries playing tricks on you by stealing things, opening doors, confusing dwarves, putting them to sleep, kidnapping children etc seem like potential features. It could also be the case that the wildlife could be hostile, unlike in benign regions, with active predators.

In conclusion, I think that evil regions are pretty well implemented right now, but making [GOOD] regions simply more lethal is probably not the best solution, as it would not differentiate them much from evil regions, therefore I think they should be overall less lethal than good regions, but should have penalties for taking advantage of this trait, and should have their own unique challenges. A few scenarios:

Satyrs have arrived at the fortress! They have brought with them lots of alcohol, do you allow your dwarves to participate in their wild drinking, getting free alcohol in the process at the possible loss of productivity? Or do you raise the drawbridges and upset them?

Faries can be useful when invasion strikes, but do you want to put up with their pranks and baby snatching in exchange for it?

Trees are crowding out your farm plots. You could cut them down, but cut down too many and you might anger them! Rampaging ents could be a dire consequence to the overeager logger.

An elf has come to preach the virtues of a life at harmony with nature. Do you let him speak to your dwarves, possibly with the consequence of soem of them changing religion, becoming vegetarian, or even leaving to join the elven forest retreats? refusing or attacking him could lead to him letting out a horrible curse, changing various dwarves into trees and animals.

I think there are a lot of possible ways where they could be expanded, it's just a matter of defining the difference between [SAVAGE] [BENIGN]  and normal good biomes.
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Watsst

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2012, 11:17:12 am »

There seem to be some differences in peoples opinions on what 'good' and 'evil' areas are meant to stand for, namely whether it is 'good' in a nice place to settle way, or 'good' in a holy land blessed by the gods way. So I thought about it and here's my conclusion. Given that a lot of people have mentioned that toady is going to change the names of the areas and create spheres, lets ignore for a second the titles of good or evil, and instead look at the much more specific classification, the surroundings.

Good Surroundings: Serene, Mirthful and Joyous Wilds.
Serene meaning its peaceful, mirthful meaning its plentiful, and joyous wilds for for lands full of wonderful goods and animals. All of these dont make any suggestions for the blessed by the gods approach, but is more implying that 'good' refers to the quality of the area. Its kind of like a oasis in a desert, a jewel of the land, an area teaming with life beyond that of the lands around it.

Stuff like arch angels shouldnt be coming from these areas, just as demons dont come from evil areas. Ents and super trees no, not because I think they wouldnt be cool, but because it doesnt fit with the 'better place to settle' mentality. Also because I think it would be far cooler if you could find them in lots of different places, as well as evil zones, giant rotten tree full of poison vine creature things. It should go for characteristics that make settling there a better place to be, but not necessarily easy. It should be good to whoever is in the area, friend or foe, and perhaps work in ways you werent expecting that causes problems. Rapid tree growth, more births, healing mists, massive monsoons, stronger fatter creatures (dwarves, goblins, all alike).
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Neonivek

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Re: Good regions being painfully good
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2012, 11:19:14 am »

Quote
because it doesnt fit with the 'better place to settle' mentality

Why would good lands be better to settle on? It is a land of "Good" not a land of benevolence.

Quote
but is more implying that 'good' refers to the quality of the area. Its kind of like a oasis in a desert, a jewel of the land, an area teaming with life beyond that of the lands around it.

Actually good lands are lands that for lack of a better word have a specific theme enforced on it. They arn't simply really great lands (which already exist as unsavage woodlands, with rivers, and mountains.).

In the future when good and evil lands are tossed out... "Good" are simply lands where the chief concepts behind them are things like music or fertility.

Quote
It should be good to whoever is in the area, friend or foe, and perhaps work in ways you werent expecting that causes problems

Good lands can still have their own sets of problems within the concept of good. In the same way unicorns used to be the king of beasts and pixies are the most annoying pests in the game.

You are dealing with a land where the creatures exemplify the concepts of virtue. A Knight is a symbol of virtue as well yet one you can easily understand can be violent and dangerous. In fact "Righteous Anger" is a thing and "Justice" even teetering on revenge are also concepts of good.

Good lands don't have to be so super benevolent that the problem is that your enemies are blessed too (though that isn't exactly a terrible thing... though one that opens up a lot of plotholes). It can also be lands where creatures exemplifying virtue live and as such the lands are more dangerous as a result.

Also Angels should be Diety servants... not creatures from good lands. Mind you not that there cannot be sentient creatures in good lands.

As well "Childlike Wonder" is also a concept of goodness, but as "Wonderland" shows us, it isn't a safe or desirable outcome to live in. Many concepts can be "good" but not desirable.

Good in the same way as evil lands is ultimately a "style" but not a true representation of form and should be treated as such. As well you are also limiting the aspect of "good" away from more interesting outcomes, in order to make "good" the exact opposite of "evil" instead of really recognising that they are superficially the same concept in different forms.

As well I will state again that if Good lands ever reach a point where they are outright beneficial... then the races should live there unless there is something that prevents them. (such as not knowing about it)

I am not against lands that are so blessed that they are an outright boon. It is just that it isn't what "good" lands are.

Also heck if you settle on a land that is an outright boon. Is there a reason why everyone shouldn't try to take it? Can we get an "easy mode" that makes sense?

As well I am also trying to push the idea people have away from "Fluffy cloud" good and more into a less contemporary idea of good. Even if the bubble grass does... kinda push it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:46:55 am by Neonivek »
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