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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3833803 times)

Bronze Dog

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10590 on: May 05, 2014, 03:49:28 pm »

I'd also guess the mushroom caps, since multi-tile trees are a thing in this update and giant mushrooms are probably covered by that. If I had to guess, the large mushrooms are being constructed in some buggy fashion that interferes with the functionality of ramps.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10591 on: May 05, 2014, 04:25:11 pm »

I should be mentioned that using currency on a regular basis within communities is a very recent development, and gift economies have been the prevailing norm for most of history, really. Even on the empire level, a common problem into the 18th century for rulers was the lack of solid currency, since most taxes were paid in natura. The "fort owns everything" contrievance is a surprisingly accurate simplification - personally I would see intra-fortress exchange as a pretty low priority.

I've read quite a bit (a lot, actually) about medieval economy, and it's true : during the MA the two systems existed. Money was mainly used for everything in relation to the "outside" (some taxes, trade, military things, mainly), while the regular use of money for everyday-life was slowly spread among common people. If DF is in the "spirit of the 14th century", you should have very wealthy (and with high economic inequalities) cities with traders always travelling and badass houses(palaces), people who used modern accounting (paper money, negotiable instrument, assurance as Toady said, optimization of change rate, etc.), highly educated, and on the other hand you had people (80/90%) who lived very poorly (not that they were miserable) with nearly no money at all - even taxes were paid in kind. The rest (10%, who lived mainly in cities) used some money, some where paid in money (like in cites, artisans, masons or butchers -butchers were very powerful at that time- for example).
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10592 on: May 05, 2014, 07:55:40 pm »

King Mir, although it's certainly possible to create site-level supply and demand, it can lead to very broken outcomes if local prices and global prices get too out of whack.  These issues are swept under the rug in the current commonwealth setting, but kludging in site-level supply and demand now could make it difficult to do The Economy™ properly down the line.  A simple system (such as a multiplier based on distance to the closest friendly producer) might be okay, but I wouldn't want to see Toady waste time on a sophisticated site-level system then have to re-invent the wheel later.
Although there is some benefit to giving each historic figure property and ambition, it is simply not enough to have a functional world economy when most of the population is not historic. You need to abstract the supply and demand of the bulk of site population, which requires site based economics, because that bulk doesn't exist as anything other than a site population number. Adding such a system need in no way be a stand in. On the contrary, such a system could be the beginning of an economic system for historical figures take part in.

Hetairos

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10593 on: May 06, 2014, 09:25:25 am »

I hope banks will make it into DF one day.

Just think about it for a while. Economic features aside, you could have heists!

And yeah, definitely mushroom caps.

mate888

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10594 on: May 06, 2014, 07:59:27 pm »

I hope banks will make it into DF one day.

Just think about it for a while. Economic features aside, you could have heists!

And yeah, definitely mushroom caps.
As long as they don't add lawyers...
EDIT: why did I wrote that?! Toady! Don't read this!
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10595 on: May 06, 2014, 10:58:50 pm »

As long as they don't add lawyers...
They are in already. Aren't those the ones behind the cotton candy?
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WillowLuman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10596 on: May 06, 2014, 11:13:54 pm »

We've already got Brokers, Clerks, and Managers...
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Wimopy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10597 on: May 07, 2014, 03:45:00 am »

Lawyers? I don't really think there's a way to make an appeal in the dwarven justice system. If you get charged, start praying to Armok or whatever gods you have so that the hammerer doesn't kill you.
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Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10598 on: May 07, 2014, 04:52:44 am »

"Fixed a subset of migrants that had broken dreams and values."
Does that mean no more adults? ;)
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10599 on: May 07, 2014, 08:22:10 am »

" Fixed some new dwarf mode skill-gain issues (e.g. skills based on spotting sneakers were all out of whack)."
I knew Dwarves had an obsession with socks, but now sneakers, too?
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10600 on: May 07, 2014, 08:55:29 am »

" For instance, I made myself super-fast and ran just far enough that my companions were offloaded and they were still able to catch up eventually (spending a moment in army form). They also found their way home when I fired them without issues."

Toady One, have you tried crossing a river (not neccesarily a major river) with companions, then making yourself super fast (though you probably won't have to in that situation) and offload them and see if they catch up? Companions getting stuck on the other side of a river and not crossing is a pretty big headache when dealing with them currently. It's also pretty much the best way to intentionally (and unintentionally) lose them.

It sounds like it should work, but I'm not sure how they'd interact with rivers in army form. So, hopefully you've checked out that situation.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 09:52:14 am by smjjames »
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10601 on: May 07, 2014, 11:13:43 am »

" For instance, I made myself super-fast and ran just far enough that my companions were offloaded and they were still able to catch up eventually (spending a moment in army form). They also found their way home when I fired them without issues."

Toady One, have you tried crossing a river (not neccesarily a major river) with companions, then making yourself super fast (though you probably won't have to in that situation) and offload them and see if they catch up? Companions getting stuck on the other side of a river and not crossing is a pretty big headache when dealing with them currently. It's also pretty much the best way to intentionally (and unintentionally) lose them.

It sounds like it should work, but I'm not sure how they'd interact with rivers in army form. So, hopefully you've checked out that situation.

Hm, your companions are supposed to be able to cross rivers, even if they weren't quite prompt about it last I tested. If they get offloaded into an "army", they'd have to move around the river, I image (at least I seem to recall Toady saying armies don't cross rivers?), but if the companions managed to catch up in the first test, I see little reason why they couldn't in that situation (unless you keep running away from them over rivers).
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10602 on: May 07, 2014, 11:21:10 am »

Hm, your companions are supposed to be able to cross rivers, even if they weren't quite prompt about it last I tested. If they get offloaded into an "army", they'd have to move around the river, I image (at least I seem to recall Toady saying armies don't cross rivers?), but if the companions managed to catch up in the first test, I see little reason why they couldn't in that situation (unless you keep running away from them over rivers).

Toady mentioned it, but it was in sort of a double-negative way.  Armies ignore rivers on the world map, since an army that can't cross a river is fairly useless.

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What with climbing and jumping being a thing, have you considered toning down the ramps on mountainous terrain? As it stands, it sure is easy for dwarfmode units to just stroll up the side of a cliff.

I've always wanted to play a cliffside fortress where the perilous terrain actually performed its role as a natural barrier. Invaders showing up on the site at the top of a cliff (despite that path being blocked as far as the world map is concerned) is quite the nuisance.
Edit: And on that note, do travelling armies respect the path of entry when arriving on a player's site?

Manveru Taurënér addresses the ramp part, mentioning that I posted earlier that cliff faces will return and that we are in a better spot for that now with climbing in the game, but that it isn't done yet and won't be for this time.  Armies have some rudimentary path finding that respects certain obstacles (not rivers at all yet, since they have to be able to cross them), so mountains should be respected.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10603 on: May 07, 2014, 01:15:09 pm »

I know your companions are supposed to be able to cross rivers, but it's pretty easy to lose companions while crossing a river, whether its because they didn't cross fast enough before they got offloaded, they got distracted by wildlife, or a combination of both.

Basically I'm just wondering if Toady One tested that situation. Though if they ignore rivers in army mode, I guess it shouldn't be a problem
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mate888

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10604 on: May 07, 2014, 03:36:37 pm »

As long as they don't add lawyers...
They are in already. Aren't those the ones behind the cotton candy?
No, no, those are politicians.
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My second turn's unnoficial goal was to turn everyone into vampires, and it backfired so bad, I ended up making the fort a more efficient, safer and friendlier place.
Apparently they evolved a taste for everything I love and care about
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