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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3806512 times)

Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10005 on: April 04, 2014, 10:56:33 am »

Question about enemy sieges, i thought i remembered reading that the enemy will finally be able to actually challenge your fortress instead of sitting outside until everyone gets bored unless you open willingfully a path to your fort.

But looking into the development list
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html

I noticed that the whole Siege improvement subsection
Quote
Improved sieges

    Eliminate remaining edge-of-map exploits
    More highly trained attacking soldiers when approprate
    Many trap exploits are handled above by requiring more to produce a trap, things like cage traps should make more sense vs. large creatures etc. (respect strength/ability vs. material, large cages might be separate object)
    Coming up with a plan to overcome pathing obstacles to reach fortress innards
        Ability to dig (optionally, default on)
        Ability to build bridges/ramps
        Ability to use grappling hooks/ladders/climb
    Learning from mistakes if first attempted assault plan fails badly
        For instance, if many siegers are killed, caged, etc. in a given hallway, they shouldn't generally go that way again, even if that means building/climbing/digging
    Siege engine improvements depend on state of boats, lifts/moving fortress sections, since these should all use the same framework


Wasn't actually in blue ( the color for " Done, Next Release " )
Does that mean that the development list is not up to date or that the siege improvements are in development but will not be in the next release ?

The only things done that could be called siege improvements afaik is enemy climbing and jumping (climbing is noted in the middle there). It will give them at least some means to bypass your walls until you update your designs accordingly.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10006 on: April 04, 2014, 11:04:08 am »

Siege engines, boats... I drool over those possibilities, I hope to be able to play them before 2020.

I will set sail on a juggernaut impulsed by a charcoal (even if it can run on coal, it will be charcoal) thrown by slave elves chained on the engine room into the engine (and an elve will be thrown in there every once in a while to mix it up), it will also have huge masts and sails made from the biggest trees I can find (hopefully a former elven site tree) AND a deck of slave oars-elves just for the sake of it and a backup if we run out of charcoal or elves, it will have dozens of cannons even if I had to modd'em in. It will run on elven hate and spew hellish fire against it's enemies! And will be the jewel of my fleet!

Speaking of which. Eventually the other races will be open to play with them, right?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 11:13:05 am by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10007 on: April 04, 2014, 11:29:03 am »

Siege engines, boats... I drool over those possibilities, I hope to be able to play them before 2020.

I think and hope siege engines might not be thaaat far off. Purely speculating here, I'd say after this release we'll see taverns, probably also straying into cooking and music, along with more elaborated hill dwarves and fortress visitors. After that I'd wager at the thief role getting tackled, including crime and punishment in adventure mode as well as in fortress mode. After that we'd have improved mechanics either along with or right before improved sieges, unless the economics system is decided to be revamped before these.

None of those releases should be as large as this one as long as feature creep doesn't strike too hard. Then again there are several other rewrites and additions sneaking about atm such as the farming rewrite, mounts, further adventurer skills, starting scenarios and fortress mode off-site army engagements, all begging to be wrapped up as well. I'm optimistic we'll see them before 2020 anyway :D

Boats I'd assume to be a later prospect, possibly waiting until after the fluid rewrite among other things.
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Verdant_Squire

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10008 on: April 04, 2014, 11:32:49 am »

Now that the movement system has been overhauled, will a tile having items/furniture make a meaningful difference in movement? I've always found it strange how you can easily walk straight through large cabinets/tables/chairs/ect. without having to do a any real maneuvering, or how you can walk over a tile which which has 10, 20, 50, or even 100 unplaced mechanisms or toys and not be at risk of tripping or hurting your feet at all.

Will soldiers / town guard wear uniforms and stuff, which involve using specific weapons or armor? If so, will adventurers working for a town have to wear it, and will be able to identify soldiers from other towns?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 11:36:18 am by Verdant_Squire »
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Robsoie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10009 on: April 04, 2014, 11:48:09 am »

The only things done that could be called siege improvements afaik is enemy climbing and jumping (climbing is noted in the middle there). It will give them at least some means to bypass your walls until you update your designs accordingly.

Thanks, that's already much better than the "sit and do nothing" behaviour of the current sieges unless you intentionally build an opening (usually full of trap) so something will actually happen during those "sieges".
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10010 on: April 04, 2014, 11:57:37 am »

Now that the movement system has been overhauled, will a tile having items/furniture make a meaningful difference in movement? I've always found it strange how you can easily walk straight through large cabinets/tables/chairs/ect. without having to do a any real maneuvering, or how you can walk over a tile which which has 10, 20, 50, or even 100 unplaced mechanisms or toys and not be at risk of tripping or hurting your feet at all.

Will soldiers / town guard wear uniforms and stuff, which involve using specific weapons or armor? If so, will adventurers working for a town have to wear it, and will be able to identify soldiers from other towns?

For the speed thing I'm fairly sure nothing has been done, it hadn't at the time of this FotF reply anyway after the initial movement overhaul and I'm sure it would've been mentioned if anything had been done since (although it was quite a while back).

Quote from: Scandles
Will the Dwarfs and other races have bush-clearing abilities, asides from harvesting and trampling, e.g a machete, i.e hacking the vegetative things hindering their progress into little bits?

I haven't gotten to any movement speed issues.  The more those matter, the more likely it is you'd have the ability to deal with it.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10011 on: April 04, 2014, 12:44:21 pm »

Will soldiers / town guard wear uniforms and stuff, which involve using specific weapons or armor? If so, will adventurers working for a town have to wear it, and will be able to identify soldiers from other towns?

No idea if Toady One has made town guards wear town uniforms, but since the adventurer is considered a free agent, it's totally optional. Although on a battlefield it would be helpful.

We already have entity symbols for various governments, so I could see a heraldic-like system where each group has their own coat of arms.
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Deboche

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10012 on: April 04, 2014, 02:07:14 pm »

Sorry if this has been asked before but...

Will it be possible to put traps on walls to hit climbers? And would it be possible to make an unscalable wall by making a platform forcing the invaders to grab on to it from below as such:

XXXX
     X
     X
     X
g g X    side view, g are goblins, X is wall

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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10013 on: April 04, 2014, 02:17:40 pm »

We can't install traps into walls yet. Traps involving stuff coming out of a hole in the wall, now that is another story.

That wall arrangement should work as far as preventing them from climbing. However, it also creates a blind spot where your marksdwarves can't shoot them.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10014 on: April 04, 2014, 02:21:57 pm »

Just need to build a moat as well and he should be good for most stuff (save those few that'll go into water).
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Verdant_Squire

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10015 on: April 04, 2014, 02:24:38 pm »

No idea if Toady One has made town guards wear town uniforms, but since the adventurer is considered a free agent, it's totally optional. Although on a battlefield it would be helpful.
Do adventurers count as free agents? I don't remember reading anything that said they are treated differently when it comes to being in the guard in the dev logs.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10016 on: April 04, 2014, 02:50:44 pm »

Do adventurers count as free agents? I don't remember reading anything that said they are treated differently when it comes to being in the guard in the dev logs.

I don't think an adventurer can join someone else's guard organization.  They can lead a squad of their own -- maybe that's what you're thinking of?
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Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10017 on: April 04, 2014, 03:21:48 pm »

What exactly does the Tavern arc consist in, what modes will it primarily affect and is there a planned timeline for it? Will its development cycle be as big of an undertaking as the current one?
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10018 on: April 04, 2014, 03:28:09 pm »

What exactly does the Tavern arc consist in, what modes will it primarily affect and is there a planned timeline for it? Will its development cycle be as big of an undertaking as the current one?

Massive info-dump on taverns, enjoy ^^

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There's even more info in the DFtalks if you want, but linking all of it would be a bit much (I think you'll find it easier to read in the actual transcript, the link is in the quote). As for the other questions, it's been hinted that Taverns are a strong candidate for the next cycle after this release, as soon as all the bugfixing and the promised fortress mode work priority overhaul is done that is. So that'd be timeline of it I guess, Toady doesn't seem to keen on doing more specific date estimates.

The development cycle shouldn't be anywhere near as long as this one hopefully. Toady has stated that he doesn't want them to take this long and will surely try even harder to keep it short in the near future I'd imagine. How long the Tavern stuff actually takes we'll most likely have to just wait and see. There are a lot of related features so it depends on how much more than just the taverns will go in along with it.

The stuff in the dev page should give some estimate:

Inns, taverns and dens

Taverns/inns
Lay out the basic area/furniture and entertain dwarves/guests
Fortress guests include hill dwarves, merchants, diplomats, adventurers, mercenaries, bandits, travelers, etc.
Musical instrument use, dancing, storytelling, etc.
Set prices/activities
Recipes/drink quality
Games
Dwarves can gamble with outsiders
Rooms rentable to outsiders
Reputation tracked
Tie-ins with fortress justice if things go badly

Adv mode taverns/inns
Some of these places shadier with shadier individuals
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 03:43:57 pm by Manveru Taurënér »
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Valtam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10019 on: April 04, 2014, 03:35:48 pm »

Will soldiers / town guard wear uniforms and stuff, which involve using specific weapons or armor? If so, will adventurers working for a town have to wear it, and will be able to identify soldiers from other towns?

They currently do, whenever you look at the clothes (usually helmets and armor) of town guards, they'll tend to have their civilization or entity symbol embroidered on them. Sometimes is not as easy, but there should be some kind of quick way to check it out, as soon as it turns relevant.

Quote from: Nopenope
What exactly does the Tavern arc consist in, what modes will it primarily affect and is there a planned timeline for it? Will its development cycle be as big of an undertaking as the current one?

Though there's no actual Tavern Arc in the Dev_Single page (which is where I assume you got your doubts about the existence of that specific arc), you might also take that the avaliable development list is outdated and inaccurate, in terms of Toady's ongoing plan.

The Tavern Arc, as we've heard, meshes a lot of stuff from the Diplomacy Arc, the Crime and Punishment Arc and a lot more. It might allow your fortress to have foreign denizens and floating populations, it will be a source of valuable information and rumours as well, it might help the economy and also provide entertainment for and by idle dwarves. Expect drunk fights, adventurers gathering, thievery and, why not, a disease vector.

Arcs, as they're being developed right now, are not lineal and self-contained, rather branching themselves while overlapping their checks and goals.

Also, see Manveru's ninja post.
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my first quest was to seige a nemacrcors tower i killed 3 nemacrcors the got killed by a zombie fly.
How on earth did you manage to do that twice?
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