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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3807519 times)

Scoops Novel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9495 on: March 06, 2014, 02:51:21 pm »

What thoughts do you have on making vacant non-dwarf-fort sites reclaimable?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:37:43 am by Novel Scoops »
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9496 on: March 06, 2014, 02:56:12 pm »

That's probably on the to-do list. Ideally there'll be a whole bunch of scenarios for starting and/or reclaiming, and starts and reclaims will eventually be blended together.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9497 on: March 06, 2014, 02:56:54 pm »

What thoughts do you have on making vacant non-dwarf sites reclaimable?

I think when it comes to other weird ruins, like the ruins of a human civilization, I don't know if there's ever going to be like a dwarf mode colonization or claiming of that. It's similar to how you can't just settle inside a human town with a dwarf fortress anymore. But I'm not sure, it's certainly not as off limits as that, it would be a kind of legitimate thing. You'll probably more likely find an adventurer making a bandit camp there or something, but if they can do that there's probably no reason why the dwarves can't go to an old human castle and set up a mine underneath it or whatever. That'd be kind of fun.
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Rapozk

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9498 on: March 06, 2014, 03:04:10 pm »

I read recently (in this thread, just too tired to quote it) that the old type of reclaiming may come back, which basically was a military attack on a (mostly) empty fortress.

It may come back later.  It's not coming back in the upcoming release.

If this is to be true, will we be able to choose an ordinary reclaim with 7 dwarves, or to do an invasion? An invasion would give you less ability to choose civilian skills and items, but give you more military dwarves, for example.

With all the new updates, you could retire a fortress, which can later fall in enemy hands, will we be able to lead a invasion in order to reclaim that lost fortress, if we are still at war with that civilization?

If the answer to the above is yes, what would stop us to lead an invasion to any site controlled by a civ we are currently at war with, all it would need is that we start the game as the old reclaim version in a human city?


You won't be able to reclaim a site that is already controlled by another entity:
If you actually make a successful claim on a site, to the point where your entity is linked to it as the dominant entity (by taking your unopposed self as a stated claimant to a power location), then the site will no longer be reclaimable by anybody.  That would be an invasion, which we don't have in fort mode at this time.

If I understand the recent development correctly, surrounding villages can succumb and be converted to villages of our own civ, in time...

If the answer to the above question is yes, then what would stop us from just doing an invasion/raid with an army, and later move on to another city?

Taking control of villages only applies to Adventure Mode for now.

Yeah, it only applies to Adventure mode now, but all of those stuff would be easy to implement, or at least, seems easy to me... Is it somehow considered to get implemented, or have toady say that he is planning to never implement it?
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9499 on: March 06, 2014, 03:15:47 pm »

That's what the Army Arc is about. Don't worry, it'll happen at least somewhat ;)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9500 on: March 06, 2014, 05:08:36 pm »

Yeah, it's all slated for near-term development:
Fortress Starting Scenarios

    Starting scenarios giving a back story for your fortress, often related to current world situation
        Reclaim mechanics should be folded into this
    Ability to bring extra dwarves along depending on scenario
    Entity populations surrounding your fortress in appropriate environments, both above and below ground
    Ability to move dwarves in and out of surroundings
    Relationship with surrounding dwarves
    Ability to trade/demand food in depot or similar place with surrounding dwarves
    Changes to caravans/diplomatic relationships based on starting scenario


 Military

    Dwarven armies
        Ability to send out fortress dwarves to lead larger groups of surrounding dwarves out around mid-level maps (or just go alone)
        Ability to send equipment and fortress dwarves out to train surrounding dwarves
        Ability to attack sites and entity populations with your dwarven armies
        Ability to set fires and select supplies to haul back when sacking a site
    Villain interactions
        Must adjust villains etc. to allow them to operate at dwarf mode time scale
        Make armies/beasts that attack fortress come from actual groups moving on world map
        Ability to fight other armies with your dwarven armies
            Larger armies should spread over multiple mid-level map squares
            Ability to create fortifications/lines/etc. instead of spreading haphazardly
            There are complications to be worked out if you can zoom in to battles and control them at the local level, concerning what happens to your fortress
            If you can zoom in, situations like being surrounded need to be respected and have the desired results regardless of what area is zoomed in on
        Allow villains to attempt to demand tribute from you
    Improved sieges
        Eliminate remaining edge-of-map exploits
        More highly trained attacking soldiers when approprate
        Many trap exploits are handled above by requiring more to produce a trap, things like cage traps should make more sense vs. large creatures etc. (respect strength/ability vs. material, large cages might be separate object)
        Coming up with a plan to overcome pathing obstacles to reach fortress innards
            Ability to dig (optionally, default on)
            Ability to build bridges/ramps
            Ability to use grappling hooks/ladders/climb
        Learning from mistakes if first attempted assault plan fails badly
            For instance, if many siegers are killed, caged, etc. in a given hallway, they shouldn't generally go that way again, even if that means building/climbing/digging
        Siege engine improvements depend on state of boats, lifts/moving fortress sections, since these should all use the same framework
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:24:03 pm by Footkerchief »
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Guylock

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9501 on: March 06, 2014, 07:21:54 pm »

I don't know if anyone asked this but I will throw it out just in case.

In adventure mode, are we able to get married to other NPC's and have a family?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:25:10 pm by Guylock »
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BlackFlyme

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9502 on: March 06, 2014, 07:26:58 pm »

I don't know if anyone asked this but I will throw it out just in case.

In adventure mode, can we get married to other NPC's and have a family?

I believe that this has already been answered with a no.

Edit: found what I was going to quote.
Will adventurers be able to reproduce in the next release? How does it happen, if at all? Will we be able to play as the son/daughter of x adventurer if they manage to reproduce?* On a related note, will we be able to fast forward time once world gen is complete? Can our adventurers even marry next release?**

Nope, all adventurer companionship is still platonic.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 pm by BlackFlyme »
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metime00

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9503 on: March 07, 2014, 12:02:10 am »

Speaking of which:
Do you/are you planning to make a meaningful distinction between a creature's "mind" and their "soul"?

Dwarf Fortress is strictly dualistic, to facilitate stuff like going to the spirit realm or swapping consciousness with another creature. All mental type attributes are in the soul.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9504 on: March 07, 2014, 09:44:02 am »

Why is this named Bay12Games?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9505 on: March 07, 2014, 09:50:57 am »

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9506 on: March 07, 2014, 11:04:02 am »

Why is this named Bay12Games?

Aliens

Should have done an image link with the History Channel guy.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9507 on: March 07, 2014, 11:53:23 am »

What thoughts do you have on making vacant non-dwarf sites reclaimable?

I think when it comes to other weird ruins, like the ruins of a human civilization, I don't know if there's ever going to be like a dwarf mode colonization or claiming of that. It's similar to how you can't just settle inside a human town with a dwarf fortress anymore. But I'm not sure, it's certainly not as off limits as that, it would be a kind of legitimate thing. You'll probably more likely find an adventurer making a bandit camp there or something, but if they can do that there's probably no reason why the dwarves can't go to an old human castle and set up a mine underneath it or whatever. That'd be kind of fun.

Haven't tried to do this (and it's probably impossible in the current version), but one thing I thought I might try someday is to have an embark site that overlaps partially with a city site.  A ways outside the city gate, an unassuming outcropping of rock houses a drawbridge and fortifications... which leads to a vast underground Dwarf Fortress.  Meanwhile, the city hums along not-quite-oblivious to your actions.  Then an army comes along to sack the city, forcing the Dwarves to seal up and miss out on caravans until the siege resolves itself (perhaps with some help from the frustrated Dwarves).

When the Army Arc, Caravan Arc, etc. are complete, do you foresee the player's fort getting involved in fights between third parties?  For example, armies crossing the area that are not aiming for your fort, but might end up causing problems anyway?  Caravans from besieged cities not arriving unless you send them an escort party, etc.?

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Rapozk

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9508 on: March 07, 2014, 01:00:36 pm »

Will moss come back to abandoned fortresses? I really miss that part, lol
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9509 on: March 07, 2014, 01:11:32 pm »

What thoughts do you have on making vacant non-dwarf sites reclaimable?

I think when it comes to other weird ruins, like the ruins of a human civilization, I don't know if there's ever going to be like a dwarf mode colonization or claiming of that. It's similar to how you can't just settle inside a human town with a dwarf fortress anymore. But I'm not sure, it's certainly not as off limits as that, it would be a kind of legitimate thing. You'll probably more likely find an adventurer making a bandit camp there or something, but if they can do that there's probably no reason why the dwarves can't go to an old human castle and set up a mine underneath it or whatever. That'd be kind of fun.

Haven't tried to do this (and it's probably impossible in the current version), but one thing I thought I might try someday is to have an embark site that overlaps partially with a city site.  A ways outside the city gate, an unassuming outcropping of rock houses a drawbridge and fortifications... which leads to a vast underground Dwarf Fortress.  Meanwhile, the city hums along not-quite-oblivious to your actions.  Then an army comes along to sack the city, forcing the Dwarves to seal up and miss out on caravans until the siege resolves itself (perhaps with some help from the frustrated Dwarves).

When the Army Arc, Caravan Arc, etc. are complete, do you foresee the player's fort getting involved in fights between third parties?  For example, armies crossing the area that are not aiming for your fort, but might end up causing problems anyway?  Caravans from besieged cities not arriving unless you send them an escort party, etc.?

I can't find the specific quote I'm thinking of, but iirc Toady have stated that armies/travellers not specifically heading for your fortress will just  pass around it in most cases. The reason for this is the time difference between adventure mode/world gen and fortress mode. For example, in the time that it'd take a traveller to pass from one end of your embark to the other he could probably have done his whole journey a few times over if only he'd have gone around instead. That's not even considering if he were to "stay the night" when we get to inns, which in fortress time would probably mean staying the whole season. Any army deciding to move through your embark would be set back about a month at least by it, depending on how many of them you actually choose to load. And you'd only be able to load a fraction of them anyway. I've had armies numbering in tens of thousands in my world gens.

It's possible Toady might come up with some workaround by then I guess. Like for example giving any wanderer passing through a super speed boost afterwards or something, but it'd probably risk ending up very very weird :>

The whole Dwarf Fortress time dilation is always going to be one of these big thorns in the side of the game. It's always going to be a huge problem to deal with. It's not a problem in adventure mode at all because adventure mode is moving at the slowest time possible in the game, so it's not a problem. [But] in dwarf mode we're always going to have to figure out a way to fudge things. If the wars are raging all over the place and, you know, over the course of month someone could sweep through an entire province or something then how does that figure in with the fact that you could maybe get your squad off the screen in a month. It's just sad, it's tragic sad, bad, and it's not going to work very well without all kinds of ... Like when you're playing a fortress it's just going to have to fake a lot of stuff. Not fake it, but just make the armies move slower on the world map too or something. So history is going to have these starts and stops, if you always play one mode you wouldn't notice but if you play between fort mode and then adventure mode and fort mode and adventure mode, there's going to be these strange dynamics going on that are caused by the fort molassesing the universe. It's okay, it's just one of those things ... because you can't go the other way and say 'I want fort mode to take as long as adventure mode' because then you'll never see summer, much less winter, because it would just take way too long for that stuff to happen. Right now [in] adventure mode if you just walk, if you're walking 'click click click'; you're going seventy two times slower than in fortress mode. So you would need to dilate the game seventy two times, which means that if you're used to a fort that lasts four years then you should get used to a fort that lasts one month for that same experience. That's crazy, that's not exactly a ...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 06:16:14 pm by Manveru Taurënér »
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