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[Golym]

If a site gets a rumor that a force of critters is coming to eat them or torture them for fun (checking the ethics of the invading civ)

How will the game behave in case of the player decides to remain in/go to the site to confront the invaders?

[Footkerchief]

Wait - If a rumor that an army is heading for a site can cause the population in that site to leave, could a similar rumor that involves your fort also affect it the same way if some dwarves do not feel safe enough?

Not in the upcoming version, but in the future, they may at least request to leave:

Spoiler: long (click to show/hide)

Capntastic:   So would it be possible for a dwarf randomly deciding to leave forever? I know that would make some people mad, it'd be like 'aah, my soapmaker left, now what I am going to do?'
Toady:   I think that having it be sudden or random would be bad; I think if you're going to take something away from someone like that there should be warning signs, and when they leave it should feel like it's your fault. At that point that'd be good enough. Or there's a case like Rainseeker came up with where there's a larger action that might be beyond your control, then it's a trickier situation: should people be able to go off and handle matters? There won't be a lot of things while people are randomly generated migrants, but if migrants are coming from other areas and have situations and family and everything else that exists outside of your fortress ...
Rainseeker:   I'm sorry sir but my grandmother's sick.
Toady:   (pauses) Oh! I thought Rainseeker was stopping the show, because there was kind of air of silence.
Capntastic:   I know, there was ... realism! He was like 'aah! I must go on a quest!'
Toady:   So Rainseeker I understand, we can continue the recording tomorrow if you have to go take care of that.
Rainseeker:   (more subdued) I need to leave the fortress because my grandmother's sick.
Toady:   Yeah, it's that kind of thing. How much of that do you want? How much would that really mess up the game? It's one of those things that probably needs some balance but I think if you've got a fortress with a hundred people, you can always spare one, even if it messes things up a little bit [and] that kind of would be really cool. Just like with every other concern with high population numbers and so on, there's the game to be thought of. People say that you kind of have to think of gameplay first and fun before realism, all that kind of thing, but it's a more tricky balance than you might think because adding realism gives you these fun payoffs as well, especially when things work together. Having people leave the fortress might seem like it's a bad thing but the payoffs for that could actually be pretty huge in terms of what happens later in the overall story of the world, or what comes back to your fortress from that, and so on. So I think it's definitely worth considering.
Rainseeker:   Yeah especially if the game could tell you the story of what happened. Sorry go ahead Ampersand.
Ampersand:   There's always the possibility that you could leave it up to the player whether they are going to allow that dwarf to leave, they [could] came and ask you 'may I please leave the fortress to go take care of my affairs?'

ThreeToe:   So the next one is TKGP. 'Have you ever considered the possibilities of emigration? Some dwarves would be more attached to your fort than others, but it stands to reason if a new migrant ventures into your fortress expecting legendary dining rooms and lovely waterfalls, only to discover a cloud of miasma the size of a small mountain, he might want to set off again to look elsewhere.' So this is where we ... I think we've discussed this before about the hill dwarves, a kind of settlement that it outside of your mountain, to where dwarves will come and go more easily than just having migrants show up all the time.
Toady:   With that also, I guess the other element is the fortress starting scenarios so that if you've got a group of dwarves that is on a secret expedition to found a little site to then send out little scout parties to check where the goblins are, or something like that, and that's, kind of, the whole mission of your little fort then maybe you'll only receive reinforcements every, you know, so often, and it would just be a few soldiers, or something, or whatever's related to your mission. We're all for doing different scenarios and things like that. I mean, the only thing to watch out for with emigration, I guess, is if the game is going to, kind of, haphazardly pull one of your really skilled or important dwarves away from you, it's got to not feel so capricious that you rage quit and chuck your computer on the ground, or something. That would be annoying.
ThreeToe:   Yeah, especially since a vampire could have eaten one of them, instead.
Toady:   Yeah. Maybe it doesn't matter then, yeah maybe when we're on the subject of death and horror and just leaving your fort, but, I mean, the leaving thing, that would just be ...
ThreeToe:   Yeah, leaving does seem kind of cheap.
Toady:   Yeah, we'll see how that ... but we're definitely going to have some things happen, and even more so when you have the hill dwarves there was the whole thing of actually assigning some of your dwarves to leave, and bringing in new people from the hills and kind of switching people out, and not just necessarily assigning them to leave as a form of exile, but to do useful things, like arming the dwarves, or, like, they could go out with weapons, and arm and teach the dwarves, and then send out, you know, 30 or 40 guys. One of the main points of hill dwarves was the army stuff, so you could send out a guy to raise the hill dwarves, and then have an army of 400 dwarves marching somewhere. So, there's going to be some interesting, kind of, emigration.
ThreeToe:   Yeah, so, sort of, more of a flow, a back and forth flow of dwarves.

If a site gets a rumor that a force of critters is coming to eat them or torture them for fun (checking the ethics of the invading civ)

How will the game behave in case of the player decides to remain in/go to the site to confront the invaders?

Same deal as visiting an occupied town or a goblin fortress:

Spoiler: long (click to show/hide)

Capntastic:   So can you now go to goblins, and talk to them? Eventually bad things and have them join you?
Toady:   They don't have a reason to join you right now so they're all like... the goblins in the town are all on the job right? They're all occupying the town and... You can talk to them though it's a standard thing right now in the game where... This is from the older code from before, would make it so someone is in a civilization that disagrees with you but they're not outright trying to kill you then they just say don't talk to me. That's how it works with the goblins right now. They just tell you not to talk to them and that may or may not be changed depending on how this whole posses of people hunting you down and all that kind of stuff... What will we end up skipping and what we end up putting in for this time may make the goblins more interesting but when you go to the goblin sites themselves they don't particularly care right now if I remember.

There's all this kind of nebulous gray areas that need to be worked out since goblins have home sites now, and aren't always at war with you. You used to only meet them through kinda ambushes or by going and killing everyone that lived in their little homes and so on. Instead of just sneaking around and getting caught and there's a troll shearing pit. It's all sort of this, this gray area now that just needs to have a yes or no decision made about it. We we're planning to put in you know more conversational options or something. A lot of times now we're just going to be ‘no' , it just turns into a violent situation immediately.
Toady:   That's just something that we'll have to go through as we do our final checklist of issues that need to be worked out. It's still quite a long list of issues that need to be worked out.
Rainseeker:   'Cause eventually you could use bribery.
Toady:   Yeah, you should be able - I mean eventually you should be able to, like, grab someone's kid and bring it to the goblins. Be like, Hey, I'm a freelance snatcher, or something like that, or bring them the heads of elves or something like that. You shouldn't have to be good all the time. That's one of the things about having freedom of choice in a video game. So the goblins shouldn't kill you immediately, although if they don't have a reason not to kill you, then, you know, free stuff or whatever. So, it's not smart to go to the goblin place. It shouldn't ever be a really good decision, unless you have a really good reason to go there. But yeah, I'm not sure how that's going to work out.

The main thing that's missing, actually, in all of this is the sort of crime-and-punishment type of stuff, because you can't get captured by the goblins, right? The crime-and-punishment arc is not all about, strictly, you stealing from the market stall and then being dragged off to some type of dungeon and then having your hand chopped off and then being released or something. It's about being able to lose control of your character, and to be imprisoned or to be dragged somewhere, and that's just not in the game right now, so it's really hard to do an interaction with the goblins that isn't just either friendly banter or you just getting chopped to pieces on the spot.

So there's a good reason why that thief role is in there. It's a pretty expansive thing. Part of the hero role is going to be exploring you being able to sort of interrogate captured people and so on. We didn't get to that part. It was on the table for this time, but we moved toward the active world for deaths, succession, and army stuff instead, and so we'll just have to do that some other time.

[Knight Otu]

If a site gets a rumor that a force of critters is coming to eat them or torture them for fun (checking the ethics of the invading civ)

How will the game behave in case of the player decides to remain in/go to the site to confront the invaders?

I doubt anything special will happen here. The invasion will happen, and people will get slaughtered. Do you think something should go on?

So chances are that most immigrants that come to a fort would be refugees now? Huh. Guess they should have taken their chances and stayed home given some forts...

Wait - If a rumor that an army is heading for a site can cause the population in that site to leave, could a similar rumor that involves your fort also affect it the same way if some dwarves do not feel safe enough?

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard if Fortress Mode emigration was going to be a thing in the next version. So, I expect they'll continue to put their misguided trust in us.

I know it's always a lost cause, but... Toady, as there has to be more and more dialogue options, would it be reasonable to have Threetoe write the dialogue? Since he's the writer and all. And you're already working together, so it's not exactly like expanding your team.

Also, these devlogs are made of awesome.

I'm pretty sure that ThreeToe has always written some of the dialogue, although I only have writing style to go on.

Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised if I heard that Zach wasn't involved in the dialogue.

[Mesa]

I can't possibly foresee how Toady could get things done before the 27th (or 28th) or 31st, which in turn means two things:

DF2013 officially renamed to DF2014
DF2014 confirmed for longest development cycle in history

Let's face it, it takes Toady (IIRC, haven't been here to witness) two weeks average to finish the testing and there are exactly two weeks left of this year, so...

If he does somehow manage to release it this year then you can call me the biggest idiot on bloody Earth, but honestly that's just as unlikely as anything else.

[My Name is Immaterial]

DF2014 confirmed for longest development cycle in history

What about Dukem Nukem Forever?

[King Mir]

Oh my god, this is getting awesomer by the minute!

I can't wait to go around saying a evil force of evil is on it's way to eat everybody's hearts, rape their horses, raze their womens and steal their homes.

Oh wait...

Why can't there be nice invaders who steal everybody's hearts, eat the spare horses, raise the children, and only rape the homes for good booze? 

[Knight Otu]

DF2013 officially renamed to DF2014

Inofficially. They're both fan nicknames. 

[Eric Blank]

Oh my god, this is getting awesomer by the minute!

I can't wait to go around saying a evil force of evil is on it's way to eat everybody's hearts, rape their horses, raze their womens and steal their homes.

Oh wait...

Why can't there be nice invaders who steal everybody's hearts, eat the spare horses, raise the children, and only rape the homes for good booze? 

Sounds like a nanny state coming to oppress them. Still an excuse to put them all six feet under. Or flee. Do you really want them seducing your lovers, eating your horses without paying full price for them, raising your children as loyal slaves to THEIR cause, and taking all the good beer!?

Regardless, I look forward to the day when the AI is able to come up with a good lie to mislead us. Such villainy!

Toady: Will refugee populations camping outside towns slowly disperse into that town's or other towns' populations, or will they remain there indefinitely/until the rumored force of darkness is rumored to have left?

[PersonGuy]

3. Come on, gunpowder? That's been suggested and debated to death and no, Toady One isn't putting in gunpowder. Though gunpowder DID exist during the time frame limit of 1400's, give or take a century. Still though, no new buildings in fort mode that we are aware of.

If you want gunpowder, I think the Masterwork mod has it?

I was suggesting possible siege weapons that existed in that period or sometime before that that would likely be useful in fortress defense and or attack and also have some weapons that also existed around or before then that would add to the game in some way.

Gunpowder weapons are the most prominent due to how many applications they had before and during the 1400s and how much they where already affecting warfare by then and why i specifically mentioned no guns was that i think they would either have to raise the tech limit and clash with the medieval games feel to make them useful for players or add a weapon that is near useless due to how most players handle their militaries(why is say this is how guns of that period where mainly good for mass conscript armies and most militaries in this game beside the elves who wouldn't touch guns have at least some focus on having an army made of dedicated soldiers that are trained and assembled during peace time with no significant military action on the horizon and generally stay there for the rest of their working life most of the time).     

[misko27]

3. Come on, gunpowder? That's been suggested and debated to death and no, Toady One isn't putting in gunpowder. Though gunpowder DID exist during the time frame limit of 1400's, give or take a century. Still though, no new buildings in fort mode that we are aware of.

If you want gunpowder, I think the Masterwork mod has it?

I was suggesting possible siege weapons that existed in that period or sometime before that that would likely be useful in fortress defense and or attack and also have some weapons that also existed around or before then that would add to the game in some way.

Gunpowder weapons are the most prominent due to how many applications they had before and during the 1400s and how much they where already affecting warfare by then and why i specifically mentioned no guns was that i think they would either have to raise the tech limit and clash with the medieval games feel to make them useful for players or add a weapon that is near useless due to how most players handle their militaries(why is say this is how guns of that period where mainly good for mass conscript armies and most militaries in this game beside the elves who wouldn't touch guns have at least some focus on having an army made of dedicated soldiers that are trained and assembled during peace time with no significant military action on the horizon and generally stay there for the rest of their working life most of the time).   

There are probably more siege weapons available for the game to use, and I think Toady will add some of them, but I think it will perhaps be in the arc where we get dwarven raids.

[Xanmyral]

To be quite honest, when magic (eventually) gets in the game I bet the first thing people will do is replicate gunpowder/guns with it. Or most likely something far worse. I can't exactly claim innocence here, as I'd do the same.

[Putnam]

To be quite honest, when magic (eventually) gets in the game I bet the first thing people will do is replicate gunpowder/guns with it. Or most likely something far worse. I can't exactly claim innocence here, as I'd do the same.

It's in the game enough to do something like that, really.

[Mesa]

DF2014 confirmed for longest development cycle in history

What about Dukem Nukem Forever?

Longest DF development cycle in history

Comparing DNF and DF is literally comparing apples and oranges.

DF2013 officially renamed to DF2014

Inofficially. They're both fan nicknames. 

As officially as it can get.

[mastahcheese]

DF2013 officially renamed to DF2014

Inofficially. They're both fan nicknames. 

As officially as it can get.

Well, I better go rename my thread, then.

[misko27]

To be quite honest, when magic (eventually) gets in the game I bet the first thing people will do is replicate gunpowder/guns with it. Or most likely something far worse. I can't exactly claim innocence here, as I'd do the same.

It's in the game enough to do something like that, really.

Tv tropes says someone created magic that can crush a lung instantly. While it would depend on what specifically you want to model (I know there are gun and gun workshop mods out there using crossbow templates), it seems likely that we could model it.


I wonder if we'll be able to make things rapid fire. Probably not, but we are still closer to a WW1 trenches mod then ever before thanks to climbing and jumping.