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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3839325 times)

LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8250 on: December 11, 2013, 10:29:43 am »

More than exciting! Too bad we will likely have a February or so release. Having it before December 20th would be golden for me, the company is giving everyone paid vacations from that day up to January 2.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8251 on: December 11, 2013, 12:21:10 pm »

Quote from DF talk 19:
Toady:   I mean, we were thinking of running it with different groups, because the goblins don't get along, they're not supposed to get along with each other, it's supposed to be the power of the demon that keeps them under control and able to take over a bunch of civilizations instead of just descending into violence among the goblins themselves, so there are going to be different groups of goblins that don't care about the other groups of goblins and I think the only thing keeping it together is going to be the demon's secret police, set up with goblins and worse, like undead things and other kind of horrible night creatures and stuff.
Rainseeker:   'Hey, you! No fighting, okay? Thank you. I will suck your blood if you don't stop fighting.'
Toady:   That's right, and those humans that they're kidnapping, that grow up and so on, can bring some order to the situation.
Rainseeker:   'Okay, guys. Let's talk about our feelings now. Let's not raise our voices, just use healing words.'

Will goblin civ's ruled by demons be the only ones who get to recruit night creatures? Will the night creature hierarchy and goblin anarchy show up when they attack in Fortress Mode?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 03:48:32 pm by Novel Scoops »
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Little Kingpin

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8252 on: December 11, 2013, 01:35:57 pm »

Are village-village squabbles ever going to turn into civil wars inside larger empires? And are we ever going to get to play agent provocateur and create such a civil war in an empire in the name of a foreign power or something?
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Anatoli

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8253 on: December 11, 2013, 02:25:00 pm »

For the next release, can entities change faiths and what regulates those changes? What regulates the strength of those faiths?

Taking the example in the devlog, what exactly is the end goal for those villages? Do they actually conquer the other village, or does the other village just gives up it's claim (or faith, in this case,) after they've been beat up a certain amount?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8254 on: December 11, 2013, 03:23:57 pm »

Got two questions here: Are you going to apply the AI to the other races as well?

The "for now" implies other races will get it later:
I turned on the in-play AI for site leaders (just humans for now)

Also, would it be possible for a full blown civil war to erupt within a civilization? The new devlog hints at the potential for larger scale internal conflicts to arise.
Are village-village squabbles ever going to turn into civil wars inside larger empires?

Wars of succession are a type of civil war that's explicitly planned:
Adventurer Role: Hero

    Villains
        Historical figures that come out of world gen and come to control segments of entity populations (bandits, etc.)
        Hostile civ leaders and the new hist figs being able to harass others by sending out groups
            Need to handle seeing them depart, seeing them raid, seeing them arrive back, and running into them during travel (with or without spoils)
            Tracking information from hunting needs to apply to following these groups
            Generally, "villians" are just leaders of groups you oppose at the time, and in this way can include squabbling petty warlords in nearby towns as well, so the groups can be large armies or assassins, though the former will probably come through the dwarf mode expansions below
            Changing populations, food use and other world gen stuff moved to actual play
            Succession and succession struggles
            Towns destroyed/rebuilt in play
            Villain groups can include degenerates harassing people in towns

Other types of civil war are certainly fair game.  We can expect to see village conflicts escalating into civil war, but not in this version.

And are we ever going to get to play agent provocateur and create such a civil war in an empire in the name of a foreign power or something?

I unfortunately can't find a quote, but this kind of intrigue (and player agency) shows up in all kinds of stories and powergoals.  I think it's safe to call it a goal.

Will goblin civ's ruled by demons be the only ones who get to recruit night creatures? Will the night creature hierarchy and goblin anarchy show up in Fortress Mode?

Recruiting night creatures is a recurring theme in ThreeToe's stories:
a wizard tries to use a night creature as a servant
a professional hunter of night creatures takes control of one

Having night creatures and goblins in a player fortress will happen to the extent that Goblin Fortress gets official support, which Toady has expressed ambivalence about.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 03:26:52 pm by Footkerchief »
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8255 on: December 11, 2013, 03:46:49 pm »

Thanks Footkerchief ye hermes, i meant to ask whether the goblin hierarchy will show up when they invade (including apathy if they're killed/not looking), and I'll make that clear though i suspect it's a yes.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8256 on: December 11, 2013, 04:58:56 pm »

Thanks Footkerchief ye hermes, i meant to ask whether the goblin hierarchy will show up when they invade (including apathy if they're killed/not looking), and I'll make that clear though i suspect it's a yes.

I don't follow about the apathy.  Who would have apathy about whose death?  I think it's a safe bet that eventually goblins will bring their night creature allies along, to the extent to it makes practical military sense.
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8257 on: December 11, 2013, 05:10:58 pm »

Alright, we now have internal conflicts (civil war) over religion and opposing ideology. Is this going to come to fort mode, so we will get a choice of which side we want to support (at least just options a, b), and then begin drafting dwarves into our chosen army?

This will be a great way to see your 200-dwarf fort get ruined.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8258 on: December 11, 2013, 05:12:31 pm »

Alright, we now have internal conflicts (civil war) over religion and opposing ideology. Is this going to come to fort mode, so we will get a choice of which side we want to support (at least just options a, b), and then begin drafting dwarves into our chosen army?

This will be a great way to see your 200-dwarf fort get ruined.

I don't think the game is able to do that just yet.
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reality.auditor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8259 on: December 11, 2013, 05:18:11 pm »

Considering all this "internal conflicts" framework, is this applied to Fortress mode? More specifically, is loyalty cascade bug fixed? Would be possible to have this kind of internal conflict with your own (former) mountainhome after accidentally or "accidentally" killing dwarf caravan?
Probably not yet, but as it is closely related, I want to be sure.
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Mopsy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8260 on: December 11, 2013, 05:37:46 pm »

Thanks Footkerchief ye hermes, i meant to ask whether the goblin hierarchy will show up when they invade (including apathy if they're killed/not looking), and I'll make that clear though i suspect it's a yes.

I don't follow about the apathy.  Who would have apathy about whose death?  I think it's a safe bet that eventually goblins will bring their night creature allies along, to the extent to it makes practical military sense.

I think he's talking about this:

Quote from DF talk 19:
Toady:   I mean, we were thinking of running it with different groups, because the goblins don't get along, they're not supposed to get along with each other, it's supposed to be the power of the demon that keeps them under control and able to take over a bunch of civilizations instead of just descending into violence among the goblins themselves, so there are going to be different groups of goblins that don't care about the other groups of goblins and I think the only thing keeping it together is going to be the demon's secret police, set up with goblins and worse, like undead things and other kind of horrible night creatures and stuff.
Rainseeker:   'Hey, you! No fighting, okay? Thank you. I will suck your blood if you don't stop fighting.'
Toady:   That's right, and those humans that they're kidnapping, that grow up and so on, can bring some order to the situation.
Rainseeker:   'Okay, guys. Let's talk about our feelings now. Let's not raise our voices, just use healing words.'

That is, he's wondering whether some of the goblins that invade your fort will stop participating in the invasion (and fight each other, wander off, etc.) if their commanders/whipcrackers are dead or absent.

Edit: Personally, I don't recall reading anything about any changes to fort mode invasions specifically. They'll use the new combat system, but otherwise they might still work exactly as in the current version.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 05:46:33 pm by Mopsy »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8261 on: December 11, 2013, 06:26:17 pm »

Alright, we now have internal conflicts (civil war) over religion and opposing ideology. Is this going to come to fort mode, so we will get a choice of which side we want to support (at least just options a, b), and then begin drafting dwarves into our chosen army?

This will be a great way to see your 200-dwarf fort get ruined.

These village raids aren't full-blown civil wars -- there hasn't been any mention of e.g. other villages taking sides.  Once that does happen, the Army Arc will allow your fortress to take part, at least militarily.  The diplomatic aspects of choosing sides aren't mentioned, but they're basically unavoidable.

Military

    Dwarven armies
        Ability to send out fortress dwarves to lead larger groups of surrounding dwarves out around mid-level maps (or just go alone)
        Ability to send equipment and fortress dwarves out to train surrounding dwarves
        Ability to attack sites and entity populations with your dwarven armies
        Ability to set fires and select supplies to haul back when sacking a site
    Villain interactions
        Must adjust villains etc. to allow them to operate at dwarf mode time scale
        Make armies/beasts that attack fortress come from actual groups moving on world map
        Ability to fight other armies with your dwarven armies
            Larger armies should spread over multiple mid-level map squares
            Ability to create fortifications/lines/etc. instead of spreading haphazardly
            There are complications to be worked out if you can zoom in to battles and control them at the local level, concerning what happens to your fortress
            If you can zoom in, situations like being surrounded need to be respected and have the desired results regardless of what area is zoomed in on
        Allow villains to attempt to demand tribute from you
    Improved sieges
        Eliminate remaining edge-of-map exploits
        More highly trained attacking soldiers when approprate
        Many trap exploits are handled above by requiring more to produce a trap, things like cage traps should make more sense vs. large creatures etc. (respect strength/ability vs. material, large cages might be separate object)
        Coming up with a plan to overcome pathing obstacles to reach fortress innards
            Ability to dig (optionally, default on)
            Ability to build bridges/ramps
            Ability to use grappling hooks/ladders/climb
        Learning from mistakes if first attempted assault plan fails badly
            For instance, if many siegers are killed, caged, etc. in a given hallway, they shouldn't generally go that way again, even if that means building/climbing/digging
        Siege engine improvements depend on state of boats, lifts/moving fortress sections, since these should all use the same framework

Considering all this "internal conflicts" framework, is this applied to Fortress mode? More specifically, is loyalty cascade bug fixed? Would be possible to have this kind of internal conflict with your own (former) mountainhome after accidentally or "accidentally" killing dwarf caravan?
Probably not yet, but as it is closely related, I want to be sure.

Presumably you mean this bug?  When discussing bugs, it's helpful to link the report, especially when requesting a fix.  Generally, if Toady hasn't mentioned fixing a bug or making a related change, the chances that a given bug was fixed are so miniscule that you can safely assume "no".
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 06:31:57 pm by Footkerchief »
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8262 on: December 11, 2013, 06:29:38 pm »



I think he's talking about this:

Quote from DF talk 19:
Toady:   I mean, we were thinking of running it with different groups, because the goblins don't get along, they're not supposed to get along with each other, it's supposed to be the power of the demon that keeps them under control and able to take over a bunch of civilizations instead of just descending into violence among the goblins themselves, so there are going to be different groups of goblins that don't care about the other groups of goblins and I think the only thing keeping it together is going to be the demon's secret police, set up with goblins and worse, like undead things and other kind of horrible night creatures and stuff.
Rainseeker:   'Hey, you! No fighting, okay? Thank you. I will suck your blood if you don't stop fighting.'
Toady:   That's right, and those humans that they're kidnapping, that grow up and so on, can bring some order to the situation.
Rainseeker:   'Okay, guys. Let's talk about our feelings now. Let's not raise our voices, just use healing words.'

That is, he's wondering whether some of the goblins that invade your fort will stop participating in the invasion (and fight each other, wander off, etc.) if their commanders/whipcrackers are dead or absent.

Edit: Personally, I don't recall reading anything about any changes to fort mode invasions specifically. They'll use the new combat system, but otherwise they might still work exactly as in the current version.

Don't goblin squads often break and flee when their commander dies?  The only change I can see happening is that some squads end up made up of the demon's secret police and don't break when their commander dies whereas squads led by less invested goblins break when the dwarven militia shows up (having been happy to slaughter civilians and animals up to that point).

Back to the recent dev log, I am fairly certain there was a power goal about having a religious war between two groups.  Does anyone have a good list of all the power goals that have actually been observed to happen?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8263 on: December 11, 2013, 06:37:51 pm »

Alright, we now have internal conflicts (civil war) over religion and opposing ideology. Is this going to come to fort mode, so we will get a choice of which side we want to support (at least just options a, b), and then begin drafting dwarves into our chosen army?

This will be a great way to see your 200-dwarf fort get ruined.

I don't think the game is able to do that just yet.
Yep. You can't send Armies off site yet in Fort Mode. BUT all this stuff most likely is the ground to be able to do that.

Considering all this "internal conflicts" framework, is this applied to Fortress mode? More specifically, is loyalty cascade bug fixed? Would be possible to have this kind of internal conflict with your own (former) mountainhome after accidentally or "accidentally" killing dwarf caravan?
Probably not yet, but as it is closely related, I want to be sure.
If the Loyalty Cascade bug was fixed, it probably would have been mention. The log posts are seemingly concentrating on Adventure Mode. So surprisingly, they aren't applying to Fort Mode. Civil war, internal conflicts, that's all planned. When ToadyOne has spoken about Family Units and Guilds, hes spoken about them having conflicts with each other.

And the vampire stuff and LoS for nervous actions, as stated in a long ago FoTF stated that that framework can be used for Criminal dorfs.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #8264 on: December 11, 2013, 06:45:16 pm »

It seems the entity relation/link system has been changed completely, which means there may be a chance that the bug is gone simply because the system that made it happen doesn't exist anymore.
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