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[WillowLuman]

Well Askot, that is one possibility of vampires. But just one possibility. As many stories require just the blood, and not ritual, it will not be the only possibility.

I've just always liked the "sealed evil in a can" kind of vampire, the ones that get locked in a catacomb or sarcophagus by those too fearful to destroy it, only to get released by some ignorant person centuries later (who gets drained by the ravenous undead).

Another common take on vampires is having one original vampire, who turns several other people into obedient thrall vampires, and the thralls revert when their master is destroyed. I guess sometimes strong-willed ones go off to start their own brainwashed armies. In fact, where return to humanity is possible, it's often accomplished by destroying the vampire that infected the one in question.

[LordBaal]

The original vampire! That's something too. Generally the ones that go off to start their own empires are either strong willed like you said, or the original vampire turn them into vampires but doesn't take away it's personality/thinking/reasoning for personal reasons. The second one usually comes back and literally bite them on the rear.

[Mr S]

...snip...
Later that day, the vampire is released. He finds out the overseer has executed the tanner for having murdered his own wife and children.

On his own chambers, the vampire finds a young dwarven maiden, gagged and chained to the wall...

Finally, we will have a use for the Legendary Cheesemakers that wander into our fortress!

[WillowLuman]

(Ninja'd)

There's also the method of transmission. Currently, it's by drinking vampire blood, a common method. However, there's also the more common method of fatal draining always turning the victim, or even just one bite (that would cause a vampsplosion, though, which in all likelihood of the RNG would be very devastating.) Currently, the original vampire becomes so from a divine curse.

Other methods I've seen include dying in a certain way/place, being cursed for comitting any kind of cannibalism (another with potential for vampsplosion, and also often used for werebeasts), resurrection gone wrong, and practicing evil magic.

[arkhometha]

arkhothema: I'm with Hugo here. It's eventually planned that procedurally generated stuff could be completely and utterly off the wall in terms of normal fantasy. The fact that vampires are currently procedurally generated, even if they only have one permutation at this point, shows that yes, they are most certainly planned to have more differences later.

So, eventually, there will be vampires that will not have to feed? Or vampires that will not suffer any consequences of not acquiring sustenance aka feeding for prolonged periods of time?

Rainseeker:   I guess you could have several different archetypes of vampires, too?
Toady:   Yeah, well, vampires are ... along with zombie uprisings, the properties of a vampire are probably one of the most debated night creature type things; whether you do this or this or this or this or this or this or this. So we're just starting with ... the benefit of having randomly generated vampires is that we just have to think of the properties that people generally think of as fair game for vampires, and then turn them on or off and ... I mean, the crucial things generally seem to be some overall notion that they're predatory on people but not necessarily killing them when they feed, and also the conversation, and I'm not sure if everything else is fair game; not every vampire gets destroyed by the sun but that would certainly be a popular thing to add, and not every vampire can transform into a wolf or a bat or a gas or whatever, but that's also certainly a fair property ... and not every vampire requires a special method to kill it permanently, like driving a stake through its heart or chopping off its head, but that's also a fair property to place on them. Those are the kinds of thing we're thinking of exploring quickly ... and there's also the thing that a vampire is not an insane ravening monster all the time necessarily, and they can blend into society; that's another typical thing.

Thanks for digging up that quote Trif!

However, it is about vampires powers, that should be really cool once they are super randomized, not their feeding capabilities being changed or the possibility of a vampire who doesn't need life force to exist.

[
Oh don't worry, thanks for pointing it out! A common mistake I make all the time, I call the Eldar Elves and the other way arround too.


Arkhometha and HugoLuman (that by some weird reason I imagine is or looks exactly like Huge Jackman in Wolverine), you two need to chill down.

Hugo, I get the Arkhometha position that not drinking blood for very long times of periods should mean the "end" of the vampire (not his/her death, but his/her "end", it's a bit tricky). Having a vampire fortress should have it's own challenges and perks, instead of being basically the same but having extra tough dwarves that don't eat, drink and don't die of old age, because even when technically is not a exploit if sure do feels like one.

However Arkhometha , I also get what Hugo means, DF uses a lot procedural creation, once that is also applied to vampires we can end up with wildly variations including things that may or may not comply with western folklore and lore, things from they going back to humans up to having not effect at all. I don't fell quite comfortable with those options for the same reasons than you. They are supposed to be death so they should revert to corpses, zombies with fangs or anything but a living human/dwarf/elven, and having no consequences what so ever is even more ridiculous and unbalancing game play wise. But as I mentioned on my past Wall-O-Text™, other things can counter balance this and also it remain to be seen which proprieties the great Toad have in mind for the procedural vampires.

I have no doubt that by now Toady attention has caught all this blood draining debate, so we better ask him question about it to bury the hatchet (or stake if you will).

Oh great Toady, we come to you as your humble and happy serfs. Would you in your infinite wisdom, clarify to us, which kind of dreadful kind proprieties you intend to unleash upon your enemies with your procedural vampires?

There, done. Now let's wait.

The thing is, LordBaal, they can be as random with their powers as Toady want. It's okay. But they can't have their necessity of feeding and needing life force of others cut from them. It's the very own thing that defines them. Imagine a werecreature that doesn't turn into another creature. It's the same thing as a vampire that doesn't need to feed on life force: It's not what we are calling it. A vampire who doesn't need to feed is just an undead.
Being feeding a vital and a necessity for vampires, I do believe some form of grave consequence should happen when that doesn't happen for long periods of time. And that's the difference between HugoLuman and me: He believes you can call a creature a vampire even if it doesn't need life-force to sustain itself, I don't. He believes that a vampire who needs life force can have minor side effects, even if not feeding for a long time, as a consequence of not feeding, I don't. Though they could have minor side effects at start, after one season they should suffer badly from not getting their life force.

And Askot does indeed put a good question. Vampirism is a curse, it would be weird to see "good vampires". But I don't mind it, as long as they need to suck life force.

[LordBaal]

Well as a curse, the subject might try to redeem him/her self by pleasing the God? Maybe if is the God of Life and Hugs the vampire could try to be good, but if is the God of War and Death... well you see where I'm going with this.

Or maybe the vampire does exactly the opposite to redeem itself, just in spite of the curse put upon him. Or maybe he doesn't care for anything and exploit it's own powers to his benefit or that of other simply because. But yes I agree, vampires by definition should be evil creatures, be it ravaging savage animals or scheming and sophisticated.

As for the feeding. I know that by most definitions if not all vampires need life force, be it blood or something more ethereal like the soul, vital energy or feelings of a person. I too consider that a defining trait on a vampire. Then we have vampires that drink the color red out of things leaving them intact.... >.>

However given the nature of Dwarf Fortress (and that's why I asked Toady about specifics to round up this debate), if Toady chooses to we could have vampires that simply suffer from blood thirst but really don't needed to survive, being basically thinking zombies that don't root and might have some extra powers.

My position to have negative consequences on a vampire that don't feed upon whatever the Dice God decides (once that is implemented) goes beyond the folkloric fidelity and is more focused on gameplay balance. You should be able to yes, allow or seek out to have a vampire only fortress that yes, would have combat advantages but it should not come with it's own disadvantages or at least extra share of challenge.

Such challenges could be anything really, given a procedurally generation process we could have vampires that don't need to drink blood but just to regenerate and heal injuries in one world (a interesting option and a compromise between your and Hugo position) and have vampires that will burst into flames if don't drink blood at least once every year. However all this is highly speculative, hence, again, why I asked Toady about specific possibilities.

[arkhometha]

However given the nature of Dwarf Fortress (and that's why I asked Toady about specifics to round up this debate), if Toady chooses to we could have vampires that simply suffer from blood thirst but really don't needed to survive, being basically thinking zombies that don't root and might have some extra powers.

Yup, it would be an undead with a blood lust. If Toady chooses it, wouldn't make sense, as it would escape the definition of the word vampire.

My position to have negative consequences on a vampire that don't feed upon whatever the Dice God decides (once that is implemented) goes beyond the folkloric fidelity and is more focused on gameplay balance. You should be able to yes, allow or seek out to have a vampire only fortress that yes, would have combat advantages but it should not come with it's own disadvantages or at least extra share of challenge.

I don't believe Toady or DF are worried with balance, to be honest. I think that's the last thing he cares too... I mean we have Minotaurs that a wardog can kill and we have creatures with syndromes so deadly and made of adamantine that it's just ridiculous. Also, it was never about folkloric fidelity or balance, but what defines a creature.

Such challenges could be anything really, given a procedurally generation process we could have vampires that don't need to drink blood but just to regenerate and heal injuries in one world (a interesting option and a compromise between your and Hugo position) and have vampires that will burst into flames if don't drink blood at least once every year. However all this is highly speculative, hence, again, why I asked Toady about specific possibilities.

Eh, they would still need something to give them sustaining. See, creatures in DF sustain themselves, or they should do it. We had that bug a long time ago that meant all kobolds didn't eat and they went extinct in world generation. Of course we have creatures like Bronze Colossi that are sustained by magic, but it's not the case of cursed creatures. A werebeast and a vampire are cursed, and the vampires curse is needing to feed on other's life force.

Now, I know people will give me the whole "it's Toady game he can make a vampire who doesn't need blood" and it is right, however, it would be wrongly be called so.  You see, if we had a Bronze Colossi made out of Iron, and it was called Bronze Colossi in game, would it be rightly called so? Similarly, if we had an undead creature that drinks blood but it doesn't really need it for sustenance, would it be a vampire?

I know it seems I'm being stubborn, and sorry for insisting in this point, but using a word carries that definition with it, so if we call a creature a toad in game, we will expect it to the have the things that define a toad. If the creature is called a vampire or a rakshasa, there are different meaning and standards coming with it. It could die in the sun or not, it could transform in a bat or breath fire, but if it doesn't need to other's life force... If nothing, DFTalk #20 shows Toady is willing to commit to standards defined in myths:

Threetoe:   Okay, so the next question is from Onebedterrin, he asks, 'Will there ever be any colossus other than bronze such as a stone, adamantine, or bone colossus.' He mentions we already have titans made out of different materials ... so yeah, the stone colossus, or the bronze colossus, what's the thought?
Toady:   Well, the bronze colossus of course is a Jason and the Argonauts ... from Talos coming in and lifting up ships and shaking them and so on ... this is the reality ...
Threetoe:   Yeah they've been there from the beginning ...
Toady:   It's the reality we grew up with, all the Ray Harryhausen stuff. I think all of our megabeasts have appeared in a Ray Harryhausen movie somewhere, except the randomized megabeasts but every other one has been in either The Clash of the Titans or Jason and the Argonauts or one of the Sinbad movies. It's just how we roll here at Bay 12 Games. I don't think there's going to be therefore, another kind of colossus add as a raw stock creature and the randomized creatures that we currently have. You can have, as you said, a Titan made completely out of stone or something. They don't work very well right now, especially the ones made out of snow or whatever, they just die, but that would probably be how they come about. We already have the smaller magma man type things and so on and again, I think we're probably going to be moving in the direction where material creatures of different sizes are just things that randomly occur and hopefully it doesn't get too mushy or gobbledygooky but that's how it's going to happen.

Anyway, even if Toady answer to yours and my question saying "yes, they need to feed" vampire only fortress and undead accountants should still be possible, be it via modding or you would just need to feed your vampire regularly.

[LordBaal]

Well imagine a vampire that needs to drink blood only to regenerate injuries. Of course it could have the usual thirst and would drink blood at every chance, but if deprived of it, he/she wont outright perish or withe away, but instead keep going as usual but can't recover from injures.

That kind of vampire would be ideal for Hugo (whom I still imagine is secretly Huge Jackman) administrative tasks. Such vampire, after being imprisoned for a long time would outright assault and drink dry any unsuspecting fool unlucky enough to let him out, regardless of being caught or discovered as a vampire.

I'm guessing something along this lines would be among the possibilities once they get to be procedurally generated.

I would rather them to either whiter away, not dying but becoming really really weak, never actually dying but losing all their powers and/or becoming becoming something easy to kill. Or also becoming either feral creatures like monstrous wolves (or gross creatures) or fanged zombies/skeletons. Also I would like them to have a point of no return, where even if they drink blood they keep the way they are now.

PD: By pure chances I'm listening to a song called Vampiro (vampire in spanish).

[WillowLuman]

I just think vampires who aren't harmed much by blood starvation should be a possibility, and certainly a rare one, when they do get handed over to the RNG, seeing as there are many stories where they can get by without it. Losing the strengths/powers of vampirism seems like a good non-lethal consequence. Your eternal pump operator might lose their super strength and speed due to lack of blood, bringing them down to the level of a mortal, and still burn from silver/sunligh/holiness, but this wouldn't affect their role as a pump operator unless it was a holy pump.

In general, I do like vampires as evil monsters (nice vampires are a tad overdone these days), but I wouldn't want their possibility removed. They should be rare, but still possible, like a forgotten beast whose only syndrome effect is removing pain (and that has consequences, too).

Basically, vampires don't always need to feed on people to survive, but they always want to feed, even the rare conscientious ones (who only resist the urge, not subdue it). The desire and ability to feed, being reshaped into something whose nature it is to hunt and parasitize, (which most often leads to the conscious intent to feed), is constant throughout all depictions of vampires.

[Man In Zero G]

Vampires are also traditionally OCD with a compulsion to count everything.

One +copper short sword+, hahaha!
Two +copper short sword+, hahaha!
THREE +copper short sword+, hahaha!

DINGDINGDING

This is exactly how I've imagined every single vampire in all of my forts. Regardless of job. The vampire marksdwarf going to the ammo stockpile? "One +steel bolt+, Two +steel bolts+, ah, ah, ah" The *shudder* vampire doctor I got once: "One cave spider silk stitch, TWO cave spider silk stitches, THREE..." etc.

Irrelevant vampire crap below. The entire multi-page discussion belongs elsewhere.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The cool thing about vampires in fiction is that they can be anything the author wants them to be. They have evolved over the centuries from one author's vision to the next, always similar but almost never identical. Even the things people think of as 'required' to be a vampire are fluid. So I really don't have any complaints about how they are portrayed in DF, it honestly makes them more disturbing that they apparently don't need to drink blood, they just really like to. The fact they can lie in wait, sealed in a little room forever, until some foolish adventurer/megabeast/whatever breaks down the door.... they are genuinely more frightening because of it.

And I genuinely hate every single discussion ever that even hints at an implication that Toady should change his vision to fit what some other author wrote. It is an affront to the creative process and an insult to the man as an artist.

[Neonivek]

And I genuinely hate every single discussion ever that even hints at an implication that Toady should change his vision to fit what some other author wrote. It is an affront to the creative process and an insult to the man as an artist

Actually... He should. Toady should change vampires so that his vision fits what some author wrote.

But I am cheating when I say that because Vampires (and Werewolves) are eventually going to be part of a generation system. So him using ideas other authors have had as part of the generation system (for example: Do Vampires look perfectly human, inhuman monsters, or shape shift between their inhumanity and humanity?)

[monk12]

More accurately, DF is a fantasy world simulator, so mostly it needs the ability to generate any given definition of "vampire" out there. Which is something that's already planned, so I'm not sure what the hubub is about.

[Neonivek]

More accurately, DF is a fantasy world simulator, so mostly it needs the ability to generate any given definition of "vampire" out there. Which is something that's already planned, so I'm not sure what the hubub is about.

Well there are probably some things that need to be smoothed over.

The Vampire stuck in a wall trick is kind of silly...

[arkhometha]

And I genuinely hate every single discussion ever that even hints at an implication that Toady should change his vision to fit what some other author wrote. It is an affront to the creative process and an insult to the man as an artist.
And as a matter of fact, the whole discussion started because I asked what Toady he thought about the current state of vampirism in DF, not because someone tried to make Toady change his vision.

Nobody said that, though. I only pointed out vampires don't really need blood, and their description (and meaning that comes with the word vampire) in DF states they are cursed to need it (or corresponding life-force). So I don't get where are you getting this from.

Even the things people think of as 'required' to be a vampire are fluid.

Yeah, they need to sustain themselves on some form of life force, though, and they don't produce it.

So I really don't have any complaints about how they are portrayed in DF, it honestly makes them more disturbing that they apparently don't need to drink blood, they just really like to.

So they are just undead that lust for blood. Can't be classified as a vampire, then. Names should change and it's curse is useless, since they don't really need the thing that they are cursed to prowl the night in search of. I take you didn't really read the discussion, so I will not drag this on.

More accurately, DF is a fantasy world simulator, so mostly it needs the ability to generate any given definition of "vampire" out there. Which is something that's already planned, so I'm not sure what the hubub is about.

Not necessarily. We only have one type of Bronze colossi and Toady said it isn't going to implement Iron Colossi. So we are not necessarily getting all types of all things.

Threetoe:   Okay, so the next question is from Onebedterrin, he asks, 'Will there ever be any colossus other than bronze such as a stone, adamantine, or bone colossus.' He mentions we already have titans made out of different materials ... so yeah, the stone colossus, or the bronze colossus, what's the thought?
Toady:   Well, the bronze colossus of course is a Jason and the Argonauts ... from Talos coming in and lifting up ships and shaking them and so on ... this is the reality ...
Threetoe:   Yeah they've been there from the beginning ...
Toady:   It's the reality we grew up with, all the Ray Harryhausen stuff. I think all of our megabeasts have appeared in a Ray Harryhausen movie somewhere, except the randomized megabeasts but every other one has been in either The Clash of the Titans or Jason and the Argonauts or one of the Sinbad movies. It's just how we roll here at Bay 12 Games. I don't think there's going to be therefore, another kind of colossus add as a raw stock creature and the randomized creatures that we currently have. You can have, as you said, a Titan made completely out of stone or something. They don't work very well right now, especially the ones made out of snow or whatever, they just die, but that would probably be how they come about. We already have the smaller magma man type things and so on and again, I think we're probably going to be moving in the direction where material creatures of different sizes are just things that randomly occur and hopefully it doesn't get too mushy or gobbledygooky but that's how it's going to happen.

You can have giants of other materials but they will not be called Adamantine Colossi. There is a chance vampires don't deviate from a pattern. If that's good or bad, I don't have an opinion on it.
The hubub was about the necessity of life force to vampires and the currently unimplemented consequences of not getting it.

[monk12]

And I genuinely hate every single discussion ever that even hints at an implication that Toady should change his vision to fit what some other author wrote. It is an affront to the creative process and an insult to the man as an artist.

Nobody said that, though. I only pointed out vampires don't really need blood, and their description (and meaning that comes with he word vampire) in DF states they are cursed to need it. So I don't get where are you getting this from.

More accurately, DF is a fantasy world simulator, so mostly it needs the ability to generate any given definition of "vampire" out there. Which is something that's already planned, so I'm not sure what the hubub is about.

Not necessarily. We only have one type of Bronze colossi and Toady said it isn't going to implement Iron Colossi. So we are not necessarily getting all types of all things.

Threetoe:   Okay, so the next question is from Onebedterrin, he asks, 'Will there ever be any colossus other than bronze such as a stone, adamantine, or bone colossus.' He mentions we already have titans made out of different materials ... so yeah, the stone colossus, or the bronze colossus, what's the thought?
Toady:   Well, the bronze colossus of course is a Jason and the Argonauts ... from Talos coming in and lifting up ships and shaking them and so on ... this is the reality ...
Threetoe:   Yeah they've been there from the beginning ...
Toady:   It's the reality we grew up with, all the Ray Harryhausen stuff. I think all of our megabeasts have appeared in a Ray Harryhausen movie somewhere, except the randomized megabeasts but every other one has been in either The Clash of the Titans or Jason and the Argonauts or one of the Sinbad movies. It's just how we roll here at Bay 12 Games. I don't think there's going to be therefore, another kind of colossus add as a raw stock creature and the randomized creatures that we currently have. You can have, as you said, a Titan made completely out of stone or something. They don't work very well right now, especially the ones made out of snow or whatever, they just die, but that would probably be how they come about. We already have the smaller magma man type things and so on and again, I think we're probably going to be moving in the direction where material creatures of different sizes are just things that randomly occur and hopefully it doesn't get too mushy or gobbledygooky but that's how it's going to happen.

You can have giants of other materials but they will not be called Adamantine Colossi. There is a chance vampires don't deviate from a pattern. If that's good or bad, I don't have an opinion on it.
The hubub was about the necessity of life force to vampires and the currently unimplemented consequences of not getting it.

Right, but that quote is more about how Bronze Colossi shouldn't be their own thing, they should just be part of the whole randomized Titan thing, in much the same way Werewolves started out as a specific creature and have now branched out into multiple were-curses. Vampires are specifically highly variable in terms of powers, weaknesses, and motivations across media, and they'll be the same in DF (we'll see how internally consistent they are from world to world.)

I'd talk more about how "necessity of life force" isn't even common to all vampires, but that was covered fairly exhaustively in the last FotF thread, and frankly I don't care since Toady's already said what he's going to do with it.